Season 5
|
Episode 3
Storytelling, freelancing, and designing 0 to 1
Gabe Valdivia
Early-stage design partner
Mar 14, 2024
Mar 14, 2024
|
45 min
45 min
music by Dennis
About this Episode
One of the most requested guests has been Gabe Valdivia. He was an early designer at Facebook, a designer manager at Google, and has led design for different startups over the years most recently as head of design for Patreon.
But in the last year he's made the jump to start his own practice and position himself as a fractional design partner for early stage teams. So a lot of this conversation gets into the weeds about what it's like to design 0 to 1 experiences. We talk about tactics for speed, storytelling, prototyping and a lot more...
Show Notes
Become a better writer in 60 minutes (My First Million)
Hilarious video example from Alex Cornell
Van Neistat's YouTube channel
Deep Dives
Get our weekly breakdowns
Insights + resources from top designers 👇
Lauren LoPrete
Director of Design Systems @ Cash App
David Hoang
VP of Marketing and Design @ Replit
Adrien Griveau
Founding Designer @ Linear
James McDonald
Designer @ Clerk
Femke
Design Lead @ Gusto
Join 10K+ designers
HC
HC
HC
HC
Deep Dives
Get our weekly breakdowns
Free lessons from 👇
Lauren LoPrete
Lead designer @ Netflix
David Hoang
VP of Marketing and Design @ Replit
Adrien Griveau
Founding Designer @ Linear
Femke
Design Lead @ Gusto
Join 10K+ designers
HC
HC
HC
Deep Dives
Get our weekly breakdowns
Insights + resources from top designers 👇
Lauren LoPrete
Director of Design Systems @ Cash App
David Hoang
VP of Marketing and Design @ Replit
Adrien Griveau
Founding Designer @ Linear
James McDonald
Designer @ Clerk
Femke
Design Lead @ Gusto
Join 10K+ designers
HC
HC
HC
HC
Transcript chapters
[00:00:00] How Gabe started his career in design
Gabe: Well, there's different archetypes for how people get into design. They're like the Neopets people. They're the, Mac forums people. I am part of the people that got into it through music and band posters.
In ninth grade, , I joined a school where you had to pick a major and I haven't stopped designing since so it's basically the only thing I know how to do.
And along that journey, the iPhone came out and. Kind of made me notice Silicon Valley and startups and, you know, the options growing up where like, I could either work for like, some sort of corporate job, or, buy a hoodie and go to this office that has ball pits and, uh, ping pong tables.
And they're just doing things their way and they're getting away with it. You know, they're coming up with these apps that, everyone's downloading and the phone and all these things are emerging. I thought that that is aligned with like that spirit of rebellion that I got excited about. very early in my career, I kind of focus on moving to Silicon Valley and being a part of that spirit.
I joined a small startup, uh, decade ago, was was a very quintessential startup experience, like a small, office on Marcus Street in San Francisco. the startup was called automatic. We shipped a device that got a bit of notoriety and put me on the radar of the people at Facebook at that time who recruited me and I joined Facebook in 2013.
And that was a really formative experience for me, Facebook and that whole ethos. I spent a long time there. I worked on a bunch of different projects from there. I went to Google and then back to startups. And, and, I think especially recently I've, started reflecting on my experience so far and why I enjoy it about their experience and, and didn't, and the one constant across.
All the jobs that I've had have been, that I've always gravitated towards small teams that are kind of emerging, whether even within a big company like Facebook or Google, I always worked on kind of skunk works teams that had something to prove that, that like, you know, um, startup within a big tech company, that was my entire experience always.
I recently had a kid, as you know, and there's a lot of self reflection that comes in those nine months. ironically, a lot of clarity that comes after the kid comes to your world. And for me, I thought that, you know, the, the thing that made most sense was to focus on those early stage teams, that early stage energy, and use my skills, which, you know, in part have been shaped by those experiences.
Like, I'm very, I'm very good at the things that those companies need at that stage. Not very good at the things that companies need at later stages. so kind of aiming those skills towards that, um, that stage. decided to kind of take the step to leave my full time job and start my own practice, uh, focus specifically on early stage teams and helping them go from.
Zero to one from just an idea, a vague concept to a tangible product that they can react to and more importantly, their audience or their users can react to.
[00:00:00] How Gabe started his career in design
Gabe: Well, there's different archetypes for how people get into design. They're like the Neopets people. They're the, Mac forums people. I am part of the people that got into it through music and band posters.
In ninth grade, , I joined a school where you had to pick a major and I haven't stopped designing since so it's basically the only thing I know how to do.
And along that journey, the iPhone came out and. Kind of made me notice Silicon Valley and startups and, you know, the options growing up where like, I could either work for like, some sort of corporate job, or, buy a hoodie and go to this office that has ball pits and, uh, ping pong tables.
And they're just doing things their way and they're getting away with it. You know, they're coming up with these apps that, everyone's downloading and the phone and all these things are emerging. I thought that that is aligned with like that spirit of rebellion that I got excited about. very early in my career, I kind of focus on moving to Silicon Valley and being a part of that spirit.
I joined a small startup, uh, decade ago, was was a very quintessential startup experience, like a small, office on Marcus Street in San Francisco. the startup was called automatic. We shipped a device that got a bit of notoriety and put me on the radar of the people at Facebook at that time who recruited me and I joined Facebook in 2013.
And that was a really formative experience for me, Facebook and that whole ethos. I spent a long time there. I worked on a bunch of different projects from there. I went to Google and then back to startups. And, and, I think especially recently I've, started reflecting on my experience so far and why I enjoy it about their experience and, and didn't, and the one constant across.
All the jobs that I've had have been, that I've always gravitated towards small teams that are kind of emerging, whether even within a big company like Facebook or Google, I always worked on kind of skunk works teams that had something to prove that, that like, you know, um, startup within a big tech company, that was my entire experience always.
I recently had a kid, as you know, and there's a lot of self reflection that comes in those nine months. ironically, a lot of clarity that comes after the kid comes to your world. And for me, I thought that, you know, the, the thing that made most sense was to focus on those early stage teams, that early stage energy, and use my skills, which, you know, in part have been shaped by those experiences.
Like, I'm very, I'm very good at the things that those companies need at that stage. Not very good at the things that companies need at later stages. so kind of aiming those skills towards that, um, that stage. decided to kind of take the step to leave my full time job and start my own practice, uh, focus specifically on early stage teams and helping them go from.
Zero to one from just an idea, a vague concept to a tangible product that they can react to and more importantly, their audience or their users can react to.
[00:03:07] What it means to be "artifact-first" as a designer
Ridd: I want to talk a little bit more about this zero to one phase of a product's life cycle. Maybe you could share a bit about what makes that unique, but specifically how it impacts what you bring to the table as a designer.
Gabe: Yeah, I think the most unique part that resonates with you the most is the sense of urgency that is not manufactured, right? It's like a sense of survival. So that sense of urgency to me is really contagious. Uh, and it gives you a purpose or a meaning for showing up and doing things. I think there are different ways of approaching that. My favorite way is actually kind of counterintuitive to what you hear from.
Most designers out there, which is this idea of breadth versus depth. I love exploring, going really wide on an idea, and arriving at the good solutions only after you've explored all the bad solutions. and that to me feels like in order to do that in a high urgency environment, you need to get really good at being fast and being kind of in domain Of your skill sets as, as a designer of the techniques, the actual like dexterity that you have to, take an idea from abstract to concrete. So, so I think it's challenging to do that. And I, and I gravitate towards that challenge. I think this is true in all contexts, but specifically, I think in the early stage context, design is most valuable when it is artifact first.
Where, you know, you lead with an artifact, you, uh, any idea you create a prototype or, a visual of some kind that makes it real. the team stops thinking about a kind of abstract concept and reacting to a tangible artifact. so I think, you know, that is really, key for this early stage. And it becomes less necessary as the company scales up, right.
It's more about frameworks and alignments and, kind of these, these exercises or activities to actually, come together. I believe that even in that context, being artifact first is the best way to do it, but it is less, I think urgent and less obvious in that, in that environment.
Ridd: I like that take, cause it is a little bit different than what I would typically hear, especially in, First environments where, you know, you have like writing cultures are becoming a really big thing, or it's like, you know, design's role is to basically get alignment maybe in a notion doc before they even show anything visual.
So it is kind of different. I'd like to go a little bit deeper on that method and way of working. And maybe you can even talk about. you find the right problems to solve in an artifact first world, because there is more of a time investment to create an artifact for an idea versus just to start a conversation in a simple Slack message or a notion doc.
How do you make sure that you are finding the right problems to solve versus being a little bit more reactive and then creating your prototype.
Gabe: I think the goal here is to communicate an idea with as little ambiguity as possible. And, you know, this may be colored by the fact that I spent three years at Patreon before, uh, going independent.
[00:03:07] What it means to be "artifact-first" as a designer
Ridd: I want to talk a little bit more about this zero to one phase of a product's life cycle. Maybe you could share a bit about what makes that unique, but specifically how it impacts what you bring to the table as a designer.
Gabe: Yeah, I think the most unique part that resonates with you the most is the sense of urgency that is not manufactured, right? It's like a sense of survival. So that sense of urgency to me is really contagious. Uh, and it gives you a purpose or a meaning for showing up and doing things. I think there are different ways of approaching that. My favorite way is actually kind of counterintuitive to what you hear from.
Most designers out there, which is this idea of breadth versus depth. I love exploring, going really wide on an idea, and arriving at the good solutions only after you've explored all the bad solutions. and that to me feels like in order to do that in a high urgency environment, you need to get really good at being fast and being kind of in domain Of your skill sets as, as a designer of the techniques, the actual like dexterity that you have to, take an idea from abstract to concrete. So, so I think it's challenging to do that. And I, and I gravitate towards that challenge. I think this is true in all contexts, but specifically, I think in the early stage context, design is most valuable when it is artifact first.
Where, you know, you lead with an artifact, you, uh, any idea you create a prototype or, a visual of some kind that makes it real. the team stops thinking about a kind of abstract concept and reacting to a tangible artifact. so I think, you know, that is really, key for this early stage. And it becomes less necessary as the company scales up, right.
It's more about frameworks and alignments and, kind of these, these exercises or activities to actually, come together. I believe that even in that context, being artifact first is the best way to do it, but it is less, I think urgent and less obvious in that, in that environment.
Ridd: I like that take, cause it is a little bit different than what I would typically hear, especially in, First environments where, you know, you have like writing cultures are becoming a really big thing, or it's like, you know, design's role is to basically get alignment maybe in a notion doc before they even show anything visual.
So it is kind of different. I'd like to go a little bit deeper on that method and way of working. And maybe you can even talk about. you find the right problems to solve in an artifact first world, because there is more of a time investment to create an artifact for an idea versus just to start a conversation in a simple Slack message or a notion doc.
How do you make sure that you are finding the right problems to solve versus being a little bit more reactive and then creating your prototype.
Gabe: I think the goal here is to communicate an idea with as little ambiguity as possible. And, you know, this may be colored by the fact that I spent three years at Patreon before, uh, going independent.
[00:06:22] Why the best designers act like content creators
Gabe: But I, I do believe today that designers are content creators and as content creators, you, you're one of your main. Tasks is to tell a story in a format that is compelling to an audience. Sometimes that format is a document. if the audience likes to read a lot, I have friends who worked at Substack. I think that team is very, you know, like literary forward.
And they, I imagine documents are very powerful in that environment. I worked at Google where documents are also very powerful in that environment. but I think it depends on. Your team makeup and a different artifact, different kind of artifact might be more effective. And I think if you look at the broader media landscape, there's a reason why video is so engaging and so powerful.
More importantly, short form video is so powerful. I don't think, you know, sharing ideas within a team is any different. You can, like, I think the best designers are probably like TikTok creators within their own company, who can create some odd idea that's sticky and really engaging, in a way that's really powerful.
Someone who's probably the best that I've seen do this is Alex Cornell.
Ridd: I knew you were going to say Alex.
Gabe: yeah, he, he creates this like artifacts that are so powerful and so sticky. They're funny, they're high production value. They're, they're, uh, meaningful and they're good ideas, package in a way that are so powerful. So I think that is, a big part of being a designer is recognizing what is the right format and having the skills to communicate your idea in that format
Ridd: I love the idea of thinking of designers as content creators, because something I've been thinking about recently is as designers, we often just assume that, well, yeah, of course, someone's going to watch my video. Of course, someone's going to read what I wrote and actually give me attention, but it's not true, like even in your own company, it's not necessarily true.
And so like using this lens of How would I write this if it was on Twitter? Because then you have to write something that is engaging, that actually calls someone's attention and makes them want to click and give it the time of day. And I think that's an interesting. Framework that you could use maybe for like portfolio projects, internal memos, whatever you're sharing is like, yeah, you're a storyteller. Like you have to be engaging in everything that you are putting out there. And you can't just assume that just because you're the designer, someone's going to give you their full attention.
So I like that idea.
Gabe: Yeah And if you pair that with humility, right. Every time your idea doesn't get consumed in the way that you intended, that's an opportunity to learn. so you could, you could try a video and that didn't work out. Okay. Let's try an interactive prototype. Okay. That didn't work out. And you keep iterating until you find that right way.
[00:06:22] Why the best designers act like content creators
Gabe: But I, I do believe today that designers are content creators and as content creators, you, you're one of your main. Tasks is to tell a story in a format that is compelling to an audience. Sometimes that format is a document. if the audience likes to read a lot, I have friends who worked at Substack. I think that team is very, you know, like literary forward.
And they, I imagine documents are very powerful in that environment. I worked at Google where documents are also very powerful in that environment. but I think it depends on. Your team makeup and a different artifact, different kind of artifact might be more effective. And I think if you look at the broader media landscape, there's a reason why video is so engaging and so powerful.
More importantly, short form video is so powerful. I don't think, you know, sharing ideas within a team is any different. You can, like, I think the best designers are probably like TikTok creators within their own company, who can create some odd idea that's sticky and really engaging, in a way that's really powerful.
Someone who's probably the best that I've seen do this is Alex Cornell.
Ridd: I knew you were going to say Alex.
Gabe: yeah, he, he creates this like artifacts that are so powerful and so sticky. They're funny, they're high production value. They're, they're, uh, meaningful and they're good ideas, package in a way that are so powerful. So I think that is, a big part of being a designer is recognizing what is the right format and having the skills to communicate your idea in that format
Ridd: I love the idea of thinking of designers as content creators, because something I've been thinking about recently is as designers, we often just assume that, well, yeah, of course, someone's going to watch my video. Of course, someone's going to read what I wrote and actually give me attention, but it's not true, like even in your own company, it's not necessarily true.
And so like using this lens of How would I write this if it was on Twitter? Because then you have to write something that is engaging, that actually calls someone's attention and makes them want to click and give it the time of day. And I think that's an interesting. Framework that you could use maybe for like portfolio projects, internal memos, whatever you're sharing is like, yeah, you're a storyteller. Like you have to be engaging in everything that you are putting out there. And you can't just assume that just because you're the designer, someone's going to give you their full attention.
So I like that idea.
Gabe: Yeah And if you pair that with humility, right. Every time your idea doesn't get consumed in the way that you intended, that's an opportunity to learn. so you could, you could try a video and that didn't work out. Okay. Let's try an interactive prototype. Okay. That didn't work out. And you keep iterating until you find that right way.
[00:09:07] How Gabe has grown as a storyteller
Ridd: I want to pull on this storytelling thread a little bit more because I have seen you write about the importance of. Storytelling at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how good your designs are, like your ability to tell an effective story is what's going to lead to the outcome that you want, whether it's getting your video watched or even landing like that next role.
So maybe we could use this opportunity to talk a little bit about how you've grown as a storyteller over the years.
Gabe: I think my answer to that is going to be similar to the answer to many questions you might ask, which is practice, just do as many things as you can, as much as you can. I, you know, I've done this for a minute now and I've had my own podcast. I hosted a conference. I have. I've done a lot of public speaking, I have written a lot of stuff, all of that is probably mediocre at best, uh, but it is an attempt for me to practice and get better at storytelling, when I see designers who, Have their own podcast or have their own, you know, Tik TOK series or whatever it is that to me gives me, a signal that they're interested in, in practicing and putting themselves out there and getting better at their craft.
And I, I honestly, that that's the only way I know to get better at something is to do it as much as possible.
Ridd: I want to push on it a little bit more. You've put in all these reps you've practiced. If you were to go back and look at. Who you were as a storyteller much earlier in your career, maybe even early Facebook. What were some of the gaps or ways that you have since leveled up as a result of all of that practice?
Gabe: Yeah, it's probably the taste, right? I've developed a better sense of taste now than I had then. I think I am more aware now of a broader pantheon of designers, or creators who influence what my first step is. Um, so if I were to go back, I would put more effort into finding reference points that, show me what good storytelling is. Um, today I spend a lot of time consuming content from comedians. I love film. I love reading all of that influences what I can do as a designer.
And maybe in the past I thought of those as like separate worlds where now I feel like there's more overlap between those worlds and I feel more comfortable pulling a technique that I see a filmmaker do into a all hands presentation for a corporate design work, you know, like, if you really kind of like blend those worlds together, I think you can, Get better at that, that storytelling bit.
Ridd: It's interesting. You say comedians, because I was listening to a, my first million podcast the other day. And Shaan Puri said the exact same thing. He's like, if you want to get better at storytelling, you Watch a comedian because they're the people that have to refine their craft the most and really understand this idea of withholding intention and revealing at the right moment.
So that's just another plus one in my book. I'd like to kind of turn back to your process and the way that you're working with different clients now that you've ventured off and you're working as an independent, because one of the things that I noticed is you're currently like working, I think with like four different. Clients. So everything's like super, super new.
[00:09:07] How Gabe has grown as a storyteller
Ridd: I want to pull on this storytelling thread a little bit more because I have seen you write about the importance of. Storytelling at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter how good your designs are, like your ability to tell an effective story is what's going to lead to the outcome that you want, whether it's getting your video watched or even landing like that next role.
So maybe we could use this opportunity to talk a little bit about how you've grown as a storyteller over the years.
Gabe: I think my answer to that is going to be similar to the answer to many questions you might ask, which is practice, just do as many things as you can, as much as you can. I, you know, I've done this for a minute now and I've had my own podcast. I hosted a conference. I have. I've done a lot of public speaking, I have written a lot of stuff, all of that is probably mediocre at best, uh, but it is an attempt for me to practice and get better at storytelling, when I see designers who, Have their own podcast or have their own, you know, Tik TOK series or whatever it is that to me gives me, a signal that they're interested in, in practicing and putting themselves out there and getting better at their craft.
And I, I honestly, that that's the only way I know to get better at something is to do it as much as possible.
Ridd: I want to push on it a little bit more. You've put in all these reps you've practiced. If you were to go back and look at. Who you were as a storyteller much earlier in your career, maybe even early Facebook. What were some of the gaps or ways that you have since leveled up as a result of all of that practice?
Gabe: Yeah, it's probably the taste, right? I've developed a better sense of taste now than I had then. I think I am more aware now of a broader pantheon of designers, or creators who influence what my first step is. Um, so if I were to go back, I would put more effort into finding reference points that, show me what good storytelling is. Um, today I spend a lot of time consuming content from comedians. I love film. I love reading all of that influences what I can do as a designer.
And maybe in the past I thought of those as like separate worlds where now I feel like there's more overlap between those worlds and I feel more comfortable pulling a technique that I see a filmmaker do into a all hands presentation for a corporate design work, you know, like, if you really kind of like blend those worlds together, I think you can, Get better at that, that storytelling bit.
Ridd: It's interesting. You say comedians, because I was listening to a, my first million podcast the other day. And Shaan Puri said the exact same thing. He's like, if you want to get better at storytelling, you Watch a comedian because they're the people that have to refine their craft the most and really understand this idea of withholding intention and revealing at the right moment.
So that's just another plus one in my book. I'd like to kind of turn back to your process and the way that you're working with different clients now that you've ventured off and you're working as an independent, because one of the things that I noticed is you're currently like working, I think with like four different. Clients. So everything's like super, super new.
[00:12:29] How to get ramped up on a new problem space quickly
Ridd: My question is how are you able to ramp up quickly on a new problem space
Gabe: I think that there's, there's something really liberating about, trusting the design process and trusting why you are in the room as a designer. you know, I've been in the same room as people who are. Way smarter than I am way more capable in every sense of the word. yet they can't do what I can't do.
and I think that's really empowering, right? Every designer has something to bring to the table that is different than what the rest of the room has to bring, I think of it that way of coming into a room and kind of silencing my imposter syndrome and all my insecurities with the voice that says, Hey, you're good at this thing.
You know how to do this thing. You've been doing it for a while. Just bring that to the table. And you can talk to a rocket scientist, you can talk to a neurosurgeon, you can talk to. Anyone who on paper could seem intimidating. I think you, you can contribute something. My next step from that is usually, helping the team articulate in layman's terms, like why we're doing what we're doing. Kind of like that, those scenes and movies, you know, where the, like the scientist is saying something and then. Some, the friend is next, next to them.
They're like, okay, now say in English, that's, that's kind of what I, what I do. Or like, you know, when in, in your company environment, there's a lot of, assumptions that you make and you're really deep into like why what you're doing is important and, and all the, the steps beyond that. So I like to come in and literally play the dumb card and say, Hey, I, I don't really know what that means.
Can you explain that to me? And why are we doing this? Like, what is the problem here that we're solving? Yeah, but that's not really a problem. Like, how would your mom articulate that problem? How would this person articulate that problem? Like, I find that it's easy to get to that corporate jargon speak where like, we need to do this and that, but really you need to make something that is tangible or like, um, digestible to anyone, uh, on the street.
So, so I, I like to like kind of ground everyone in that truth. And. More often than not, people don't know how to get there. And that's where design comes in. You help them arrive at articulation of the problem. So I think that, that to me, those are two techniques that I used to kind of ramp up in a new space.
Like I'm not a prompt engineer or machine learning expert. I don't, that's not my world, but I can sit next to a machine learning expert and together we can craft. a problem statement and I can bring design to augment what that person is doing. and I could do that with any other expert, uh, knowing that, you know, it's not really my skillset that I'm bringing to the table.
It's, it's this knowledge of design as a process, almost like the scientific process, where if you apply that process into any area, you can make progress.
Ridd: I've led design for many startups over the last like 10 plus years and a pretty common experience that I've had. I know others have had is you're working. In this small team environment, and you have founders and leaders with very strong opinions and really what they want is for you to just execute against those opinions.
So could you talk a little bit about how you collaborate and like really build rapport . With founders specifically, but also how you as a designer help a young company establish vision
[00:12:29] How to get ramped up on a new problem space quickly
Ridd: My question is how are you able to ramp up quickly on a new problem space
Gabe: I think that there's, there's something really liberating about, trusting the design process and trusting why you are in the room as a designer. you know, I've been in the same room as people who are. Way smarter than I am way more capable in every sense of the word. yet they can't do what I can't do.
and I think that's really empowering, right? Every designer has something to bring to the table that is different than what the rest of the room has to bring, I think of it that way of coming into a room and kind of silencing my imposter syndrome and all my insecurities with the voice that says, Hey, you're good at this thing.
You know how to do this thing. You've been doing it for a while. Just bring that to the table. And you can talk to a rocket scientist, you can talk to a neurosurgeon, you can talk to. Anyone who on paper could seem intimidating. I think you, you can contribute something. My next step from that is usually, helping the team articulate in layman's terms, like why we're doing what we're doing. Kind of like that, those scenes and movies, you know, where the, like the scientist is saying something and then. Some, the friend is next, next to them.
They're like, okay, now say in English, that's, that's kind of what I, what I do. Or like, you know, when in, in your company environment, there's a lot of, assumptions that you make and you're really deep into like why what you're doing is important and, and all the, the steps beyond that. So I like to come in and literally play the dumb card and say, Hey, I, I don't really know what that means.
Can you explain that to me? And why are we doing this? Like, what is the problem here that we're solving? Yeah, but that's not really a problem. Like, how would your mom articulate that problem? How would this person articulate that problem? Like, I find that it's easy to get to that corporate jargon speak where like, we need to do this and that, but really you need to make something that is tangible or like, um, digestible to anyone, uh, on the street.
So, so I, I like to like kind of ground everyone in that truth. And. More often than not, people don't know how to get there. And that's where design comes in. You help them arrive at articulation of the problem. So I think that, that to me, those are two techniques that I used to kind of ramp up in a new space.
Like I'm not a prompt engineer or machine learning expert. I don't, that's not my world, but I can sit next to a machine learning expert and together we can craft. a problem statement and I can bring design to augment what that person is doing. and I could do that with any other expert, uh, knowing that, you know, it's not really my skillset that I'm bringing to the table.
It's, it's this knowledge of design as a process, almost like the scientific process, where if you apply that process into any area, you can make progress.
Ridd: I've led design for many startups over the last like 10 plus years and a pretty common experience that I've had. I know others have had is you're working. In this small team environment, and you have founders and leaders with very strong opinions and really what they want is for you to just execute against those opinions.
So could you talk a little bit about how you collaborate and like really build rapport . With founders specifically, but also how you as a designer help a young company establish vision
[00:15:46] Having an impact through pushing pixels
Gabe: I've heard a lot of people push back against the idea of being a pixel pusher that, you know, they want to have a seat at the table and think about the strategy and contribute to the larger picture. I am a staunch believer that the best way to have strategic impact is to push pixels. So I would, I would very happily be, uh, your hired gun and I'll execute your idea.
Like I, I love designing. That's the, that's the fun part. Like put me in front of Figma, put me in front of origami and I'll make a wonderful prototype of your idea. Now, is it a good idea? We'll find out. Right. And it could be, great. And therefore we keep, we keep going or more likely than not, it is a bad idea.
Or there's some parts of the idea that are, that are bad. So now we have the breathing room because we've kind of like scratched that itch. Now we can sit back and be like, huh, something is not right there. How can we make it right? I think that's where you come in and it can influence the, the, the more, uh, strategic discussions.
but I have no qualms on executing your ideas, anybody's ideas. I love designing. It's like my favorite thing to do. I love coming in and, and. Rolling up my sleeves and designing anything, whatever you want it to be like a business card, a bathroom sign, a VR prototype, we can do all, all the above, and then we'll find if the ideas are good or bad,
Ridd: restate that back just to make sure that I get it. Cause it is a cool take, which is basically like, maybe you even have a gut sense that a certain idea. Isn't going to work, but instead of pushing back and trying to drive alignment really early in the process, maybe in a doc, you're just like, yeah, screw it.
Let's just, let's just build it, ship it, get feedback and iterate from there. Would you agree with that
Gabe: Some way. I think you can arrive at validation before you ship and iterate an idea. And that's where the artifact comes in, right? The right artifact comes in. You can create a prototype that is high fidelity enough. That feels real. Um, and you can then validate it without going through the cycles of engineering and arrive at the conclusion of whether it's a good idea or a bad idea way faster than you would, you know, if you implement it, with your engineering team.
The secret sauce is like, can you, visualize or like bring that idea to life quickly for other people to be able to understand what you're trying to communicate.
I think that's where the Facebook, kind of upbringing comes in where there was a lot of work being done there to create really high fidelity prototypes really quickly to validate ideas. So, so I think that paired up with that artifact first mentality, allows us to, you know, get out of the abstract land of like, should we do this?
Should we do that? Let's do this and that, and let's do both at a high fidelity and then react.
Ridd: You mentioned origami, which makes sense. Given the Facebook background, can you talk a little bit about when you reach for Figma versus when you reach for origami?
Gabe: Yeah, it's changed a lot over the last few years. Before Facebook, I was doing a lot of prototyping on Keynote, actually. that was when Magic Move was actually magic. Now we have Smart Animate on Figma that, made it mainstream. But, Yeah, I went from, from keynote to origami. Uh, I worked in VR for many years, so I had to get my hands dirty and unity.
I find that Figma has gotten really good at prototyping, like good enough ideas, and origami becomes, the tool for a very specific, you know, use cases, maybe like you're dealing with like a map for location data. Or maybe you're dealing with like, you know, native, inputs, like you need a camera and you have to have like more in depth interactions like that.
or you have gotten the design, To a point where you can focus on the micro interactions. Like, you know, I fig myself hasn't shipped like scroll based interactions or like different triggers for, uh, your prototype. So you might want to jump into a tool like origami for that, to really like get that to the next level.
But the figma becomes, has become the, the tool for most of it right now.
Ridd: Yeah, it makes sense. I haven't hopped into like a principal or prototype in a long time, which I used to use for the majority of my prototyping. So it's kind of interesting to see that macro trend.
I want to ask a little bit more about your kind of zero to one process and workflow, because it's very interesting to me and I think I want to even frame it by.
Saying that as someone who has also went zero to one, you know, quite a few times and it just kind of goes hand in hand with working with startups. Each time I, start over on this process, I'm tweaking little things and finding little improvements in ways that I can improve my own process.
[00:15:46] Having an impact through pushing pixels
Gabe: I've heard a lot of people push back against the idea of being a pixel pusher that, you know, they want to have a seat at the table and think about the strategy and contribute to the larger picture. I am a staunch believer that the best way to have strategic impact is to push pixels. So I would, I would very happily be, uh, your hired gun and I'll execute your idea.
Like I, I love designing. That's the, that's the fun part. Like put me in front of Figma, put me in front of origami and I'll make a wonderful prototype of your idea. Now, is it a good idea? We'll find out. Right. And it could be, great. And therefore we keep, we keep going or more likely than not, it is a bad idea.
Or there's some parts of the idea that are, that are bad. So now we have the breathing room because we've kind of like scratched that itch. Now we can sit back and be like, huh, something is not right there. How can we make it right? I think that's where you come in and it can influence the, the, the more, uh, strategic discussions.
but I have no qualms on executing your ideas, anybody's ideas. I love designing. It's like my favorite thing to do. I love coming in and, and. Rolling up my sleeves and designing anything, whatever you want it to be like a business card, a bathroom sign, a VR prototype, we can do all, all the above, and then we'll find if the ideas are good or bad,
Ridd: restate that back just to make sure that I get it. Cause it is a cool take, which is basically like, maybe you even have a gut sense that a certain idea. Isn't going to work, but instead of pushing back and trying to drive alignment really early in the process, maybe in a doc, you're just like, yeah, screw it.
Let's just, let's just build it, ship it, get feedback and iterate from there. Would you agree with that
Gabe: Some way. I think you can arrive at validation before you ship and iterate an idea. And that's where the artifact comes in, right? The right artifact comes in. You can create a prototype that is high fidelity enough. That feels real. Um, and you can then validate it without going through the cycles of engineering and arrive at the conclusion of whether it's a good idea or a bad idea way faster than you would, you know, if you implement it, with your engineering team.
The secret sauce is like, can you, visualize or like bring that idea to life quickly for other people to be able to understand what you're trying to communicate.
I think that's where the Facebook, kind of upbringing comes in where there was a lot of work being done there to create really high fidelity prototypes really quickly to validate ideas. So, so I think that paired up with that artifact first mentality, allows us to, you know, get out of the abstract land of like, should we do this?
Should we do that? Let's do this and that, and let's do both at a high fidelity and then react.
Ridd: You mentioned origami, which makes sense. Given the Facebook background, can you talk a little bit about when you reach for Figma versus when you reach for origami?
Gabe: Yeah, it's changed a lot over the last few years. Before Facebook, I was doing a lot of prototyping on Keynote, actually. that was when Magic Move was actually magic. Now we have Smart Animate on Figma that, made it mainstream. But, Yeah, I went from, from keynote to origami. Uh, I worked in VR for many years, so I had to get my hands dirty and unity.
I find that Figma has gotten really good at prototyping, like good enough ideas, and origami becomes, the tool for a very specific, you know, use cases, maybe like you're dealing with like a map for location data. Or maybe you're dealing with like, you know, native, inputs, like you need a camera and you have to have like more in depth interactions like that.
or you have gotten the design, To a point where you can focus on the micro interactions. Like, you know, I fig myself hasn't shipped like scroll based interactions or like different triggers for, uh, your prototype. So you might want to jump into a tool like origami for that, to really like get that to the next level.
But the figma becomes, has become the, the tool for most of it right now.
Ridd: Yeah, it makes sense. I haven't hopped into like a principal or prototype in a long time, which I used to use for the majority of my prototyping. So it's kind of interesting to see that macro trend.
I want to ask a little bit more about your kind of zero to one process and workflow, because it's very interesting to me and I think I want to even frame it by.
Saying that as someone who has also went zero to one, you know, quite a few times and it just kind of goes hand in hand with working with startups. Each time I, start over on this process, I'm tweaking little things and finding little improvements in ways that I can improve my own process.
[00:20:26] How Gabe's 0 to 1 process has evolved over the years
Ridd: And so when you reflect on your own journey, as someone who has went through that process a few times now, what are some of the ways that Your workflow has evolved or matured or just different ways that you're even viewing your role as a designer.
Gabe: Yeah. So I think now my role is. As an accelerator and a simplifier, the world has gotten really complex and really slow and starting something is, you know, there's so many obstacles to get to gaining momentum on something often logistical obstacles. You know, there's a lot of things that will slow you down.
So I think for me, what I can bring to the table, and I think This is true of Moses answer as well, is to help people move faster, and help people arrive at a simpler solution. I think editing is easier than creating.
So it's much easier to look at something and. Either trim it down or make it slightly better than it is to start from scratch. So it's often that first start that is really hard me, it could be as simple as like open Figma and create white rectangles for each step of the flow.
And now they're just white. Okay. Second step. Write down a couple of lines per white rectangle. So you're editing over what you made. now you have a couple of lines of text, put a gray rectangle around those boxes. Okay, cool. Now that's a button. And then you keep going and now you're kind of like, you know, you're not creating an interface.
You're just kind of slowly adding to the thing that you've created before. and I think that that helps the team get this sense of momentum. Right. Um, I think that paired up with. And the idea of sharing as much as possible, as quickly as possible, that now people get, this influx of creativity, right?
Every step of the way, there's a new Slack comment, there's a new post, there's a new campsite update. There's something new that helps people understand, okay, we're making progress. We're better now than we were yesterday. And that sense of momentum is really infectious.
Ridd: I like the example of just creating the white rectangles as a way to get momentum. Maybe we could talk a little bit more about that just to see if there's other tactics that you're using, because something that I've been thinking a lot about is just the different ways that designers. Complexity in the very early stages of a project when things are super ambiguous when you're just getting handed that new, whatever it is, brief, or you're starting to work on a new project,
[00:20:26] How Gabe's 0 to 1 process has evolved over the years
Ridd: And so when you reflect on your own journey, as someone who has went through that process a few times now, what are some of the ways that Your workflow has evolved or matured or just different ways that you're even viewing your role as a designer.
Gabe: Yeah. So I think now my role is. As an accelerator and a simplifier, the world has gotten really complex and really slow and starting something is, you know, there's so many obstacles to get to gaining momentum on something often logistical obstacles. You know, there's a lot of things that will slow you down.
So I think for me, what I can bring to the table, and I think This is true of Moses answer as well, is to help people move faster, and help people arrive at a simpler solution. I think editing is easier than creating.
So it's much easier to look at something and. Either trim it down or make it slightly better than it is to start from scratch. So it's often that first start that is really hard me, it could be as simple as like open Figma and create white rectangles for each step of the flow.
And now they're just white. Okay. Second step. Write down a couple of lines per white rectangle. So you're editing over what you made. now you have a couple of lines of text, put a gray rectangle around those boxes. Okay, cool. Now that's a button. And then you keep going and now you're kind of like, you know, you're not creating an interface.
You're just kind of slowly adding to the thing that you've created before. and I think that that helps the team get this sense of momentum. Right. Um, I think that paired up with. And the idea of sharing as much as possible, as quickly as possible, that now people get, this influx of creativity, right?
Every step of the way, there's a new Slack comment, there's a new post, there's a new campsite update. There's something new that helps people understand, okay, we're making progress. We're better now than we were yesterday. And that sense of momentum is really infectious.
Ridd: I like the example of just creating the white rectangles as a way to get momentum. Maybe we could talk a little bit more about that just to see if there's other tactics that you're using, because something that I've been thinking a lot about is just the different ways that designers. Complexity in the very early stages of a project when things are super ambiguous when you're just getting handed that new, whatever it is, brief, or you're starting to work on a new project,
[00:22:53] How Gabe thinks about the spectrum of perfection
Ridd: What are some of the ways that you take this really ambiguous, meaty problem space and bring it towards that place of simplification?
Gabe: I had a college teacher who had this saying, I don't know if he came up with it, but he used to say there are no dumb questions. There's only dumb people and dumb people don't ask questions. Um, to do. Um, and with every answer, I try to visualize it into something more than a line of text. Um, I, uh, uh, one of my who's a famous YouTuber. Um, and so I, I, I like to ask dumb questions of nugget of what we're trying to do.
Um, it into something more than a line of text. Um, and with every answer, I, ask dumb and get to that kind of nugget of what we're He has a, uh, a video where he talks about the spectrum of perfection. and how, one end of the spectrum, you have something that's good enough, and on the other end of the spectrum, you have something that's perfect and the middle, you have something that's excellent.
And there are people who wait, a long time, until what they're creating is excellent before they share it, right? They want to share something excellent. So they wait. A long time and iterate a long time on it. Then once it gets to that point where they believe it's excellent, they share it. I am much more of the good enough type of creator or designer where as soon as something is good enough, I share it.
And the hope is that the more good enough things you share, uh, the closer you'll get to excellent
[00:22:53] How Gabe thinks about the spectrum of perfection
Ridd: What are some of the ways that you take this really ambiguous, meaty problem space and bring it towards that place of simplification?
Gabe: I had a college teacher who had this saying, I don't know if he came up with it, but he used to say there are no dumb questions. There's only dumb people and dumb people don't ask questions. Um, to do. Um, and with every answer, I try to visualize it into something more than a line of text. Um, I, uh, uh, one of my who's a famous YouTuber. Um, and so I, I, I like to ask dumb questions of nugget of what we're trying to do.
Um, it into something more than a line of text. Um, and with every answer, I, ask dumb and get to that kind of nugget of what we're He has a, uh, a video where he talks about the spectrum of perfection. and how, one end of the spectrum, you have something that's good enough, and on the other end of the spectrum, you have something that's perfect and the middle, you have something that's excellent.
And there are people who wait, a long time, until what they're creating is excellent before they share it, right? They want to share something excellent. So they wait. A long time and iterate a long time on it. Then once it gets to that point where they believe it's excellent, they share it. I am much more of the good enough type of creator or designer where as soon as something is good enough, I share it.
And the hope is that the more good enough things you share, uh, the closer you'll get to excellent
[00:24:12] How to increase speed by working in systems
Ridd: I like how often things come back to momentum and speed. And on your website, you make a point to talk about how you're able to work really quickly as a designer. So are there other tactics or strategies or anything else that you've refined that allows you to work more fast as a designer.
Gabe: I think working in systems makes me work much faster. I've worked with designers who organize their files in a way that is like mind numbing to me.
Like I am auto layout for everything all the time, components for everything all the time, name all my layers. I, that helps me have a tidy. workshop to then revisit once I inevitably get it wrong and need to like do an iteration.
Right. I think of every design as like a sense of maybe like a universe of tools and rules that I'm setting up that are, that should be internally consistent so that when I need to revisit them, I can understand that language that I'm setting up. so for me, it's important to like, be as tidy as possible.
Now that doesn't mean that the, the canvas itself is tidy. There's going to be a lot of iterations, but, the components should be, you know, reusable, um, so that I can then kind of take those out of that context and put them in a different context. that may be another thing that I do that helps me move fast.
Whereas like a little bit of investment in, at the beginning to make them reusable so that. revision two, five, 10, 15 from there. I don't have to redo it.
Ridd: have a big smile on my face because. I don't think you hear that very often, especially from designers who are working in that early stage. It's very much so like, no, you can't name your layers, no components, groups over frames, you know, and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like you, you described the white boxes in your process.
I will draw the white box and I will turn that into a component before I have anything in it, just so that I don't have to change it twice. I never want to have to change anything twice. So it's interesting to hear you talk about relying on components, even though you are inheriting these really early stage bodies of work.
Gabe: Yeah, I think, I think maybe people react to that as like being somewhat elitist or, you know, they hear a statement like that and they look at their own files and they're like, Oh, my file looks like shit. I must be a bad designer. So then they, they feel the need of saying, you know, you don't need to do that.
You can be a designer and have a shitty file and still you'll have, you'll have a job. Which, you know, more power to them. I take joy in the organization of the file. Like that to me is part of the fun of being a designer is, you know, tidying it up, like I love tidying my desk.
I love tidying my house. It's, it's what I, what I get joy out of. if there's any logic behind it, like actual, like, you know, now with variables and, origami, that is a big part of origami when you set up these internally consistent systems that, That itself are beautiful. You know, just like how you set up this, this prototype that can give you a sense of pride, that, that I, I find that it's like a worthy carrot to chase.
[00:24:12] How to increase speed by working in systems
Ridd: I like how often things come back to momentum and speed. And on your website, you make a point to talk about how you're able to work really quickly as a designer. So are there other tactics or strategies or anything else that you've refined that allows you to work more fast as a designer.
Gabe: I think working in systems makes me work much faster. I've worked with designers who organize their files in a way that is like mind numbing to me.
Like I am auto layout for everything all the time, components for everything all the time, name all my layers. I, that helps me have a tidy. workshop to then revisit once I inevitably get it wrong and need to like do an iteration.
Right. I think of every design as like a sense of maybe like a universe of tools and rules that I'm setting up that are, that should be internally consistent so that when I need to revisit them, I can understand that language that I'm setting up. so for me, it's important to like, be as tidy as possible.
Now that doesn't mean that the, the canvas itself is tidy. There's going to be a lot of iterations, but, the components should be, you know, reusable, um, so that I can then kind of take those out of that context and put them in a different context. that may be another thing that I do that helps me move fast.
Whereas like a little bit of investment in, at the beginning to make them reusable so that. revision two, five, 10, 15 from there. I don't have to redo it.
Ridd: have a big smile on my face because. I don't think you hear that very often, especially from designers who are working in that early stage. It's very much so like, no, you can't name your layers, no components, groups over frames, you know, and I'm like, what are you talking about? Like you, you described the white boxes in your process.
I will draw the white box and I will turn that into a component before I have anything in it, just so that I don't have to change it twice. I never want to have to change anything twice. So it's interesting to hear you talk about relying on components, even though you are inheriting these really early stage bodies of work.
Gabe: Yeah, I think, I think maybe people react to that as like being somewhat elitist or, you know, they hear a statement like that and they look at their own files and they're like, Oh, my file looks like shit. I must be a bad designer. So then they, they feel the need of saying, you know, you don't need to do that.
You can be a designer and have a shitty file and still you'll have, you'll have a job. Which, you know, more power to them. I take joy in the organization of the file. Like that to me is part of the fun of being a designer is, you know, tidying it up, like I love tidying my desk.
I love tidying my house. It's, it's what I, what I get joy out of. if there's any logic behind it, like actual, like, you know, now with variables and, origami, that is a big part of origami when you set up these internally consistent systems that, That itself are beautiful. You know, just like how you set up this, this prototype that can give you a sense of pride, that, that I, I find that it's like a worthy carrot to chase.
[00:27:14] Anchoring on speed > fidelity
Ridd: You talk about the importance of good enough. When you're working on a new project, again, in that zero to one frame, How do you think about where that line of good enough lives? And maybe there are even certain things that you find typically fall on the other side of that line for you.
Gabe: comes back to speed, you know, I think you should be able to share an update on the work every day, every other day, definitely every week. so if it takes you two weeks to come back with a prototype, that's too slow. Like you should have shared a napkin sketch, you I think you, you can.
give yourself the luxury of creating a higher fidelity prototype or artifact, if you have become fast enough to do that, if not, then give me a wireframe. Right? Like I need to be reacting to something often, and bringing people along with me often. otherwise I'm not ready to focus on origami prototypes.
I'm just not fast enough. I'm not ready. I got to keep, go back to. practicing on my own until I'm ready to bring that to my professional world. So that, that to me is like the, the cost of doing something high fidelity. If I can make a perfect prototype, you know, within 30 minutes, I do that.
that's the goal.
Ridd: That's really cool actually. I frequently hear designers anchoring on the fidelity level, but that's irrelevant. You should anchor on the speed, because if you can crank out high fidelity and the same time it takes for someone else to make a wireframe, then what's stopping you?
I like that a lot. You've talked a little bit now, a couple times about this frequency of sharing with the team and bringing back these artifacts. I've seen you specifically mentioned. The async video with a voiceover, which is so, so important, especially in the post COVID world. And like, it's a skill that it's kind of expected of a lot of designers.
[00:27:14] Anchoring on speed > fidelity
Ridd: You talk about the importance of good enough. When you're working on a new project, again, in that zero to one frame, How do you think about where that line of good enough lives? And maybe there are even certain things that you find typically fall on the other side of that line for you.
Gabe: comes back to speed, you know, I think you should be able to share an update on the work every day, every other day, definitely every week. so if it takes you two weeks to come back with a prototype, that's too slow. Like you should have shared a napkin sketch, you I think you, you can.
give yourself the luxury of creating a higher fidelity prototype or artifact, if you have become fast enough to do that, if not, then give me a wireframe. Right? Like I need to be reacting to something often, and bringing people along with me often. otherwise I'm not ready to focus on origami prototypes.
I'm just not fast enough. I'm not ready. I got to keep, go back to. practicing on my own until I'm ready to bring that to my professional world. So that, that to me is like the, the cost of doing something high fidelity. If I can make a perfect prototype, you know, within 30 minutes, I do that.
that's the goal.
Ridd: That's really cool actually. I frequently hear designers anchoring on the fidelity level, but that's irrelevant. You should anchor on the speed, because if you can crank out high fidelity and the same time it takes for someone else to make a wireframe, then what's stopping you?
I like that a lot. You've talked a little bit now, a couple times about this frequency of sharing with the team and bringing back these artifacts. I've seen you specifically mentioned. The async video with a voiceover, which is so, so important, especially in the post COVID world. And like, it's a skill that it's kind of expected of a lot of designers.
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