Season 2
|
Episode 8
Leading high-stakes design presentations
Yuan Wang
Head of Design @ Maven
Sep 14, 2023
Sep 14, 2023
|
47:00
47:00
music by Dennis
About this Episode
This interview was special because I got to reconnect with former team member at Maven — Yuan ✌️
Yuan led design at Twitter, Airbnb and Maven and actively coaches creative leaders in the industry ✨
In this interview we talk energy through your career, how we organize our portfolio websites and strategies for presenting work to stakeholders.
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Get every episode
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Fonz Morris
Lead designer @ Netflix
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Past leader @ Pinterest, Square
Femke
Design lead @ Gusto
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UX lead @ Google
Join 6K+ designers
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Transcript chapters
Starting the Airbnb mentorship program
[00:00:00] yuan: After I joined Airbnb, I had this opportunity to have lunch with the head of, like, design operations at Airbnb design team.
[00:00:09] yuan: So she was asking me, like, what was my number one observation of the design work, I paused for a moment and said, like, I just noticed there are not that many women design, leads in the organization.
[00:00:21] yuan: So. When I joined, I think there were only six women who were in that, role. Like, there were, in total, there were almost like 30 people, like, that are in that level. So only six were women, and then only three were, like, women of color. I was one of them. So that kind of started the whole conversation and this was all on top of like all the other like day to day work that I was doing. So, but I just really felt compelled that I think this was something that's worth pushing.
[00:00:46] yuan: So, I wrote like a proposal and Started the pilot program. They were about 35 mentees that joined. Designers for content strategists or researchers, like basically everybody in the larger design work
[00:00:57] yuan: At the end, um, more than 90 [00:01:00] percent of the participants would like to enroll in this program again.
[00:01:02] yuan: We also conducted some, you know Kickoffs and trainings and to really make it kind of a you know, a holistic program to root for the success for for this Experience.
[00:01:12] yuan: We end up, you know, hired, a dedicated program manager to, take over the operations so that I no longer have to do a lot of the, you know, the manual stuff, but maybe became more of like the spokesperson for, for this, uh, for this program and then to advocate and to continue kind of, you know, excite people to join.
Starting the Airbnb mentorship program
[00:00:00] yuan: After I joined Airbnb, I had this opportunity to have lunch with the head of, like, design operations at Airbnb design team.
[00:00:09] yuan: So she was asking me, like, what was my number one observation of the design work, I paused for a moment and said, like, I just noticed there are not that many women design, leads in the organization.
[00:00:21] yuan: So. When I joined, I think there were only six women who were in that, role. Like, there were, in total, there were almost like 30 people, like, that are in that level. So only six were women, and then only three were, like, women of color. I was one of them. So that kind of started the whole conversation and this was all on top of like all the other like day to day work that I was doing. So, but I just really felt compelled that I think this was something that's worth pushing.
[00:00:46] yuan: So, I wrote like a proposal and Started the pilot program. They were about 35 mentees that joined. Designers for content strategists or researchers, like basically everybody in the larger design work
[00:00:57] yuan: At the end, um, more than 90 [00:01:00] percent of the participants would like to enroll in this program again.
[00:01:02] yuan: We also conducted some, you know Kickoffs and trainings and to really make it kind of a you know, a holistic program to root for the success for for this Experience.
[00:01:12] yuan: We end up, you know, hired, a dedicated program manager to, take over the operations so that I no longer have to do a lot of the, you know, the manual stuff, but maybe became more of like the spokesperson for, for this, uh, for this program and then to advocate and to continue kind of, you know, excite people to join.
Advice vs. mentorship
[00:01:30] ridd: Mean, it's cool because even just preparing for this, I was spending more time on your website and I was looking at the testimonials from all of the different coaching interactions that you've had in the past. And it is really clear that you've had a huge impact, but also just helped a lot of designers get unstuck.
[00:01:48] ridd: In their career and feel energized about their craft and what they're doing. And so maybe we could even talk a little bit more about that. Like when you start working with a new client or someone that you're [00:02:00]mentoring, what are some of those early questions that you are asking them to help them gain a little bit of clarity for their own career and start to visualize what those next goals are?
[00:02:11] yuan: Yeah, love this question because I think A lot of times, at first when people come to me, I mean, of course now I have, I position myself as a coach, so maybe there are some expectations for what kind of conversations you're going to have, but before that, like, people would just come to you and then, like, want to talk to you.
[00:02:28] yuan: Get career advice, right? So like I think there is it's interesting to think about what is advice and what is coaching You know So because advice usually is something that's your experience and you believe it's right for you And then you feel like someone else should also take that advice, right? But coaching is a very different kind of conversation because Coaching is really focusing on the, that person and believe that person actually has the best answer, and then mentorship, it's also more of a, like, advice kind of, um, [00:03:00] format, so like, because you are really learning from the person who's more senior, and then the person who's more senior knows the best answer, right?
[00:03:06] yuan: So, so I think it's really like a flipped, ways of encouraging that person and empowering that person to think about what's best for, for them once you start Passed beyond that level, things just get naturally more, like, complicated, I guess? I think most of the time, because, because you got more experience, and you, you just have more options, really. Like, you have so many pathways that you can think about, right? Like, do I want to be a manager?
[00:03:31] yuan: Do I want to continue growing at IC? Do I want to... Like, is this the right time to start a family? Like, how do I actually balance my work with my passion project? Like, what about rest? So, like, you just have so much more to really think about and juggle, in my opinion.
[00:03:48] yuan: So, like, A useful framework that I usually kind of walk them through is just called the the pain and gain metric. So you can think about this like a two by two kind of metrics. You have your pain, you have your gain, and then [00:04:00] you also have your current situation of where you are.
[00:04:03] ridd: You talk about this idea of quieting your inner critic and visualizing your inner mentor.
[00:04:10] yuan: gonna pause
[00:04:10] ridd: you unpack that a little bit for us?
[00:04:12] yuan: Some people could talk about it maybe as like the imposter syndrome. It's more of less of like a like an imposter syndrome But more we all have inner critics that doubt ourselves the people that you have Seen that are very confident They just have a better relationship with their inner critic.
[00:04:28] yuan: I think just by acknowledging that, I think it normalize the feeling that you are just not enough.
[00:04:35] yuan: And accepting that we all have inner critic and your job is to recognize it and To understand what the message it's trying to tell you and what are what are some of the intentions your inner critic? Has maybe your inner critic is trying to protect you. You know, like where does that come from?
[00:04:56] yuan: Think about your inner critter that has a volume button.
[00:04:59] yuan: So you [00:05:00] can actually turn it down if you need it. And then the inner mentor concept, I think it's the flip side you have an inner critic that may be doubting you, but you could also be thinking about, you know, mentor, this, this mentor could be someone that you, you look up to, or it could be, you know, people you're just have qualities that you really aspire to become, or it could also be just an imaginary kind of, You know, voice.
[00:05:26] yuan: It's totally okay. And I think sometimes it helps when you are in a certain situation that you can ask yourself, like, What would my inner mentor, do in this situation? You know, to kind of help you get out of your own ways of thinking. And to challenge you to either, you know, be more thoughtful or be more confident.
Advice vs. mentorship
[00:01:30] ridd: Mean, it's cool because even just preparing for this, I was spending more time on your website and I was looking at the testimonials from all of the different coaching interactions that you've had in the past. And it is really clear that you've had a huge impact, but also just helped a lot of designers get unstuck.
[00:01:48] ridd: In their career and feel energized about their craft and what they're doing. And so maybe we could even talk a little bit more about that. Like when you start working with a new client or someone that you're [00:02:00]mentoring, what are some of those early questions that you are asking them to help them gain a little bit of clarity for their own career and start to visualize what those next goals are?
[00:02:11] yuan: Yeah, love this question because I think A lot of times, at first when people come to me, I mean, of course now I have, I position myself as a coach, so maybe there are some expectations for what kind of conversations you're going to have, but before that, like, people would just come to you and then, like, want to talk to you.
[00:02:28] yuan: Get career advice, right? So like I think there is it's interesting to think about what is advice and what is coaching You know So because advice usually is something that's your experience and you believe it's right for you And then you feel like someone else should also take that advice, right? But coaching is a very different kind of conversation because Coaching is really focusing on the, that person and believe that person actually has the best answer, and then mentorship, it's also more of a, like, advice kind of, um, [00:03:00] format, so like, because you are really learning from the person who's more senior, and then the person who's more senior knows the best answer, right?
[00:03:06] yuan: So, so I think it's really like a flipped, ways of encouraging that person and empowering that person to think about what's best for, for them once you start Passed beyond that level, things just get naturally more, like, complicated, I guess? I think most of the time, because, because you got more experience, and you, you just have more options, really. Like, you have so many pathways that you can think about, right? Like, do I want to be a manager?
[00:03:31] yuan: Do I want to continue growing at IC? Do I want to... Like, is this the right time to start a family? Like, how do I actually balance my work with my passion project? Like, what about rest? So, like, you just have so much more to really think about and juggle, in my opinion.
[00:03:48] yuan: So, like, A useful framework that I usually kind of walk them through is just called the the pain and gain metric. So you can think about this like a two by two kind of metrics. You have your pain, you have your gain, and then [00:04:00] you also have your current situation of where you are.
[00:04:03] ridd: You talk about this idea of quieting your inner critic and visualizing your inner mentor.
[00:04:10] yuan: gonna pause
[00:04:10] ridd: you unpack that a little bit for us?
[00:04:12] yuan: Some people could talk about it maybe as like the imposter syndrome. It's more of less of like a like an imposter syndrome But more we all have inner critics that doubt ourselves the people that you have Seen that are very confident They just have a better relationship with their inner critic.
[00:04:28] yuan: I think just by acknowledging that, I think it normalize the feeling that you are just not enough.
[00:04:35] yuan: And accepting that we all have inner critic and your job is to recognize it and To understand what the message it's trying to tell you and what are what are some of the intentions your inner critic? Has maybe your inner critic is trying to protect you. You know, like where does that come from?
[00:04:56] yuan: Think about your inner critter that has a volume button.
[00:04:59] yuan: So you [00:05:00] can actually turn it down if you need it. And then the inner mentor concept, I think it's the flip side you have an inner critic that may be doubting you, but you could also be thinking about, you know, mentor, this, this mentor could be someone that you, you look up to, or it could be, you know, people you're just have qualities that you really aspire to become, or it could also be just an imaginary kind of, You know, voice.
[00:05:26] yuan: It's totally okay. And I think sometimes it helps when you are in a certain situation that you can ask yourself, like, What would my inner mentor, do in this situation? You know, to kind of help you get out of your own ways of thinking. And to challenge you to either, you know, be more thoughtful or be more confident.
Dealing with burnout
[00:05:47] ridd: I love how tailored it is to the individual and I see why you kind of led by almost creating this opposite perspective of like, Hey, this isn't necessarily advice because advice is more [00:06:00] broadly applicable perhaps. And a lot of this feels more like counseling to an extent and really like getting into the weeds of what is ultimately motivating you.
[00:06:10] yuan: Yeah.
[00:06:11] ridd: it makes me think of like, sometimes I hang out on the subreddit for UX design. I see a lot of people using it as an outlet to discuss some of the things that you're talking about, because it is anonymous and it's a little bit easier.
[00:06:27] ridd: And maybe that helps just to get things off your chest. And I see. Okay. Specifically over the last even six months, I've seen kind of an uptick and people who maybe don't feel like they have that same level of passion for design, um, or the role, or just what their day to day is looking like. And it's a lot of people just using it as an open forum to talk about burnout.
[00:06:51] ridd: And I'm wondering, is that something that comes up frequently in your coaching conversations and how do you kind of guide people? through that [00:07:00] stage of the career.
[00:07:01] yuan: I think it's just really start with, Helping them understand, their values first. what are some of the core values that's very important for you? Um, I think that on its own, I think it's a way to help you prioritize. there's this core value exercise that I sometimes do with my client.
[00:07:22] yuan: And I think by just really holding all these different things together and, you know, asking you, like, what would you put at first
Dealing with burnout
[00:05:47] ridd: I love how tailored it is to the individual and I see why you kind of led by almost creating this opposite perspective of like, Hey, this isn't necessarily advice because advice is more [00:06:00] broadly applicable perhaps. And a lot of this feels more like counseling to an extent and really like getting into the weeds of what is ultimately motivating you.
[00:06:10] yuan: Yeah.
[00:06:11] ridd: it makes me think of like, sometimes I hang out on the subreddit for UX design. I see a lot of people using it as an outlet to discuss some of the things that you're talking about, because it is anonymous and it's a little bit easier.
[00:06:27] ridd: And maybe that helps just to get things off your chest. And I see. Okay. Specifically over the last even six months, I've seen kind of an uptick and people who maybe don't feel like they have that same level of passion for design, um, or the role, or just what their day to day is looking like. And it's a lot of people just using it as an open forum to talk about burnout.
[00:06:51] ridd: And I'm wondering, is that something that comes up frequently in your coaching conversations and how do you kind of guide people? through that [00:07:00] stage of the career.
[00:07:01] yuan: I think it's just really start with, Helping them understand, their values first. what are some of the core values that's very important for you? Um, I think that on its own, I think it's a way to help you prioritize. there's this core value exercise that I sometimes do with my client.
[00:07:22] yuan: And I think by just really holding all these different things together and, you know, asking you, like, what would you put at first
Approaching your work in seasons
[00:07:30] yuan: one philosophy I've learned, and I kind of shared that with my clients, is like how, how do we think about work instead of this constant going, you know, like I know it's, it's a luxury to think that you can stop in some, some time, but, but I think it's helpful to just at least think about approaching work in seasons, you know, like we live in places where it has seasons, like you look at the plants around you, There are seasons that they grow, and then there are seasons that just like restore, [00:08:00] and there is like nothing that's happening, but it doesn't mean that they're not coming back, like the perennials, they come back year after year, right, like, would you like to be a perennial kind of plant, or would you like to be an annual plant, you bloom so much in one year, right?
[00:08:14] yuan: So like, how if you were to think about a sustainable approach, like the nature, like the plants around you, maybe it's healthier to have a seasonal approach to your work. So like, then we start thinking about, yeah, like, what are the seasons that make sense for you to focus on? Work, and then what are the seasons that you can focus on rest?
Approaching your work in seasons
[00:07:30] yuan: one philosophy I've learned, and I kind of shared that with my clients, is like how, how do we think about work instead of this constant going, you know, like I know it's, it's a luxury to think that you can stop in some, some time, but, but I think it's helpful to just at least think about approaching work in seasons, you know, like we live in places where it has seasons, like you look at the plants around you, There are seasons that they grow, and then there are seasons that just like restore, [00:08:00] and there is like nothing that's happening, but it doesn't mean that they're not coming back, like the perennials, they come back year after year, right, like, would you like to be a perennial kind of plant, or would you like to be an annual plant, you bloom so much in one year, right?
[00:08:14] yuan: So like, how if you were to think about a sustainable approach, like the nature, like the plants around you, maybe it's healthier to have a seasonal approach to your work. So like, then we start thinking about, yeah, like, what are the seasons that make sense for you to focus on? Work, and then what are the seasons that you can focus on rest?
Tips for showcasing work in your portfolio
[00:08:36] ridd: I'd like to transition a little bit because earlier this year, I got the benefit of being able to look over your shoulder while you were reviewing all of these different portfolio websites throughout the process. And I feel like a lot of people could really benefit from just getting a better sense of your own lens that you're using to view these different portfolio websites.
[00:08:59] ridd: And [00:09:00] so maybe we could even think about that first. Five, 10, 15 seconds after you click on a website,
[00:09:08] ridd: what are you looking for? And what are some things that designers can do to make a good impression?
[00:09:13] yuan: I get that question a lot like it's a lot of times designer will ask like How can I make my portfolio stand out? Right? It's like a very common question I I think there is not that many like Tricks, I guess like I a lot of times I my straight answer is Good work stand out So like focus on doing good work, you know, like that's that's like the the number one thing I felt like it's really important to honing on like if you don't think your work is you know strong enough like focusing on Getting that work to a stronger place.
[00:09:45] yuan: So let's kind of maybe unpack a little bit about like, okay, what makes a good work? right, so I do think Still, at least in our, like at Maven, uh, what, what are the, the criterias that we have. It's, [00:10:00] we, we really care about craft here. that means I'm looking for strong visual and interaction design. Um, details, representations, so I like to look at, prototypes, you know, either mobile or desktop, it's fine, but if you have done design work, like, it's helpful to see that prototype, so you have them, show them off, um, and I think another common mistakes maybe that people neglect on their portfolio is that thumbnail, like, the thumbnail that they use to click into the case study, I think you could do so much more to make it interesting, uh, exercise your design muscles to, really differentiate, um, so, we all know what the standard kind of thumbnails could probably look like, so, yeah, like, how can you differentiate yourself just from that, because you can think about it as like, even like an ad for your case study, you know, like, how can you make it interesting that people want to click and then to, um, Look at [00:11:00] it, right?
[00:11:00] yuan: So, so that's I think different things, but in general strong visual design interaction details are the number one thing that I like to look at. and I think in terms of your narrative for the case study, this is also Commonly seen from maybe graduates who came from bootcamps because you were told to do all these methodologies and you know showcase all the the process with like raw sketches and wireframes and all that so There's nothing wrong with doing these.
[00:11:33] yuan: I think it's awesome that you know designers can like that You have the space to show that but I think it's important to have your outcome first and then Process being the second thing, because as a hiring manager, they will only care about the process if the outcome is good. Uh, so that goes back to doing good work.
[00:11:55] yuan: How can you make your actual work, the design part of the work, [00:12:00] good? Um, so, if you don't think that final output is strong enough, like, okay, maybe the prototype is not polished enough, or maybe, you know, I could, So, I'm going to show a little bit more wider range of explorations and, yeah, like focus on those things first, uh, so that you improve it, you can show it off like a little bit earlier in your case study so that people can see it early on, and then they will be more invested understanding how you get there.
[00:12:29] yuan: I think a lot of portfolio case studies, just like, Straight up going through, like, timeline of all the process and stuff and then at the end the
[00:12:37] ridd: big
[00:12:38] yuan: is like, yeah, it's like, yeah, not that great. So, you know, I just felt like it was really a missed opportunity and But, yeah, good work stands out, so, like, focus on that, um, you know, I think, rather than just, like, adding all the methods and process, you know, to justify the work itself.
[00:12:58] yuan: So I think that's really [00:13:00] important, especially for junior level designers. Um,
[00:13:04] ridd: the point of, of like just giving people an idea of where you're going into
[00:13:07] yuan: mhm,
[00:13:09] ridd: a portfolio project and I'm looking at sticky notes and I still don't know where we're going, you've lost me. Like I'm
[00:13:15] yuan: mhm. Yeah, totally. I think it's about how you think about the attention span also for your hiring manager so that you can like design to impress or to show your, the best things earlier on, you know, I think that's a strategy that it's, it's, it's, it will be smart to, to incorporate for your site.
[00:13:34] yuan: Right. and I think the last piece, it's also being able to talk about impact in some degree. So like, yeah. Either it's in your portfolio or in your kind of, you know, verbal kind of walkthrough, you know, to really help the person understand the impact with this work. I think startups, or like, every company I guess, but I felt like especially for startups.
[00:13:57] yuan: They love to hire. Designers who can design for [00:14:00] impact, you know, because you're so close to the business and so close to all the growth kind of opportunities. So, like, if you have work in that space, like, really take the time to talk about, you know, your understanding of the business and the, but also, like, maybe not every work is about improving business.
[00:14:19] yuan: It could also be, um, about, you know, organizational efficiency. Culture improvements, impact is impact, like, it doesn't need to be, like, particular metrics. I think just being able to speak about that, and it's a good way to reflect on your process, and a good way to showcase that you understand how to measure success for your work.
[00:14:39] yuan: I know some designers will be like, oh, like, I don't have all the concrete metrics, or I left before this was shipped, or, you know, so, like, That's fine and acknowledge that that's the case, but still you should be able to talk about what are the benchmarks or signals you might look for if you were to measure the success, right?
[00:14:59] yuan: So like [00:15:00] don't miss that opportunity to talk about it because I think a lot of times this is less about like the exact numbers. You understand this concept and you can apply to those things. actual, you know, scenarios. And that's the most important thing.
[00:15:13] yuan: So, take the opportunity to like, be more proactive, even if you don't have the numbers. That shows you understand what hiring managers are looking for.
Tips for showcasing work in your portfolio
[00:08:36] ridd: I'd like to transition a little bit because earlier this year, I got the benefit of being able to look over your shoulder while you were reviewing all of these different portfolio websites throughout the process. And I feel like a lot of people could really benefit from just getting a better sense of your own lens that you're using to view these different portfolio websites.
[00:08:59] ridd: And [00:09:00] so maybe we could even think about that first. Five, 10, 15 seconds after you click on a website,
[00:09:08] ridd: what are you looking for? And what are some things that designers can do to make a good impression?
[00:09:13] yuan: I get that question a lot like it's a lot of times designer will ask like How can I make my portfolio stand out? Right? It's like a very common question I I think there is not that many like Tricks, I guess like I a lot of times I my straight answer is Good work stand out So like focus on doing good work, you know, like that's that's like the the number one thing I felt like it's really important to honing on like if you don't think your work is you know strong enough like focusing on Getting that work to a stronger place.
[00:09:45] yuan: So let's kind of maybe unpack a little bit about like, okay, what makes a good work? right, so I do think Still, at least in our, like at Maven, uh, what, what are the, the criterias that we have. It's, [00:10:00] we, we really care about craft here. that means I'm looking for strong visual and interaction design. Um, details, representations, so I like to look at, prototypes, you know, either mobile or desktop, it's fine, but if you have done design work, like, it's helpful to see that prototype, so you have them, show them off, um, and I think another common mistakes maybe that people neglect on their portfolio is that thumbnail, like, the thumbnail that they use to click into the case study, I think you could do so much more to make it interesting, uh, exercise your design muscles to, really differentiate, um, so, we all know what the standard kind of thumbnails could probably look like, so, yeah, like, how can you differentiate yourself just from that, because you can think about it as like, even like an ad for your case study, you know, like, how can you make it interesting that people want to click and then to, um, Look at [00:11:00] it, right?
[00:11:00] yuan: So, so that's I think different things, but in general strong visual design interaction details are the number one thing that I like to look at. and I think in terms of your narrative for the case study, this is also Commonly seen from maybe graduates who came from bootcamps because you were told to do all these methodologies and you know showcase all the the process with like raw sketches and wireframes and all that so There's nothing wrong with doing these.
[00:11:33] yuan: I think it's awesome that you know designers can like that You have the space to show that but I think it's important to have your outcome first and then Process being the second thing, because as a hiring manager, they will only care about the process if the outcome is good. Uh, so that goes back to doing good work.
[00:11:55] yuan: How can you make your actual work, the design part of the work, [00:12:00] good? Um, so, if you don't think that final output is strong enough, like, okay, maybe the prototype is not polished enough, or maybe, you know, I could, So, I'm going to show a little bit more wider range of explorations and, yeah, like focus on those things first, uh, so that you improve it, you can show it off like a little bit earlier in your case study so that people can see it early on, and then they will be more invested understanding how you get there.
[00:12:29] yuan: I think a lot of portfolio case studies, just like, Straight up going through, like, timeline of all the process and stuff and then at the end the
[00:12:37] ridd: big
[00:12:38] yuan: is like, yeah, it's like, yeah, not that great. So, you know, I just felt like it was really a missed opportunity and But, yeah, good work stands out, so, like, focus on that, um, you know, I think, rather than just, like, adding all the methods and process, you know, to justify the work itself.
[00:12:58] yuan: So I think that's really [00:13:00] important, especially for junior level designers. Um,
[00:13:04] ridd: the point of, of like just giving people an idea of where you're going into
[00:13:07] yuan: mhm,
[00:13:09] ridd: a portfolio project and I'm looking at sticky notes and I still don't know where we're going, you've lost me. Like I'm
[00:13:15] yuan: mhm. Yeah, totally. I think it's about how you think about the attention span also for your hiring manager so that you can like design to impress or to show your, the best things earlier on, you know, I think that's a strategy that it's, it's, it's, it will be smart to, to incorporate for your site.
[00:13:34] yuan: Right. and I think the last piece, it's also being able to talk about impact in some degree. So like, yeah. Either it's in your portfolio or in your kind of, you know, verbal kind of walkthrough, you know, to really help the person understand the impact with this work. I think startups, or like, every company I guess, but I felt like especially for startups.
[00:13:57] yuan: They love to hire. Designers who can design for [00:14:00] impact, you know, because you're so close to the business and so close to all the growth kind of opportunities. So, like, if you have work in that space, like, really take the time to talk about, you know, your understanding of the business and the, but also, like, maybe not every work is about improving business.
[00:14:19] yuan: It could also be, um, about, you know, organizational efficiency. Culture improvements, impact is impact, like, it doesn't need to be, like, particular metrics. I think just being able to speak about that, and it's a good way to reflect on your process, and a good way to showcase that you understand how to measure success for your work.
[00:14:39] yuan: I know some designers will be like, oh, like, I don't have all the concrete metrics, or I left before this was shipped, or, you know, so, like, That's fine and acknowledge that that's the case, but still you should be able to talk about what are the benchmarks or signals you might look for if you were to measure the success, right?
[00:14:59] yuan: So like [00:15:00] don't miss that opportunity to talk about it because I think a lot of times this is less about like the exact numbers. You understand this concept and you can apply to those things. actual, you know, scenarios. And that's the most important thing.
[00:15:13] yuan: So, take the opportunity to like, be more proactive, even if you don't have the numbers. That shows you understand what hiring managers are looking for.
Rethinking how we structure our portfolios
[00:15:22] ridd: I'd like to return back to your billboard comment. Um, and just this idea of like the, the advertisement for a portfolio project. Cause I think that's a pretty interesting way of thinking about it. And I've also kind of been tossing around this idea of like, what would it look like if we took a giant step back and kind of challenged the way that.
[00:15:41] ridd: We think about the information architecture on a portfolio site, because I saw this tweet and it was from Daryl Ginn, who he has the godly design website, and he said, no one is reading your case study, just put all of your recent work in order on one page [00:16:00] and make it easy to find. Watch what happens.
[00:16:02] yuan: If you look at, the people with my level of experience, I guess, like, people that I've worked together with, like, if you look at their portfolio, like, there's, like, no one format, really, you know, I think we only, start talking about a format for a case study because I think there's a lot of people, like, more than, I would say maybe more of a junior level, like, doesn't have, a lot of, super concrete, like, experience that you could ship, so then there's a lot of case studies that you have done to prove that you understand the concept, so then, actual place, you realize, like, Every place has a very different process and you don't have time to do personas all the time or to do all the different iterations, right?
[00:16:44] yuan: So, like, naturally, the way you present your work, later on in your career, like, it would just all be very different because every project gets shipped in different fashion. You know, there's many different processes that had gone through to get to that point.[00:17:00] I think there are no wrong ways to maybe like Organize the work itself as long as it's suitable to the nature of that project, right?
[00:17:09] yuan: So like, I, I think it's totally okay to not talk about like the, the details of how the iterations at a, at a site. And then just to focus on the things that you shipped. Like, especially if you are a designer who has shipped a lot of things in like some well known companies, then like, You don't have to go into all the details, right?
[00:17:28] yuan: Just like show the best stuff. Like kind of like the, the, what is it called? Like the highlight reel that like the 3d designers usually would pack together. Right. It's just like a trailer of like all the super cool stuff that they made. I think maybe we designers like product designers should do more of that too.
[00:17:45] ridd: yeah, I like that idea. It makes me think about like where certain types of content should live in your site. Because I think I see too many websites right now where you come to the page. There's some generic heading about they're a designer who cares, and then [00:18:00] you have, you know, three to six cards below and it's a thumbnail that probably just doesn't really actually communicate that much.
[00:18:07] ridd: And then a title of a project and that's it. And I'm expected to click on one of these. And. There's not like a narrative there. There's, there's, there's, that's like the dominant theme that I see on a lot of websites, where it's like, there's not that much of a narrative. And so, I had kind of been putting myself through this exercise of like, let's say I was two, three years into my career, what would I do on my homepage?
[00:18:27] ridd: And I think an interesting strategy that I would explore is taking more of the content from case studies, putting it on that homepage where it read more as this like cohesive story. Um, maybe like, I like your point of like, maybe it should feel a little bit more like a scissor reel than a grid of cards
[00:18:48] ridd: and have someone be able to come to my page and be able to like, understand.
[00:18:53] ridd: What I've worked on, what the timelines are, what the highlights are without having to click on anything and then [00:19:00] treat those case studies almost like an appendix for someone who wants to go a little bit deeper. And it also makes me think of this tactic that I saw, reviewing portfolios, I think it was last month.
[00:19:13] ridd: And there's this guy named Matt Baird, and he did something really, really interesting where on his. Portfolio pages. He, his breakdown of the project was quite short. Actually, he just told the highlights and he really put a lot of emphasis into having nice visuals that captured like the core prototype and then maybe like the core screens.
[00:19:36] ridd: And then he actually embedded a Figma slide deck
[00:19:41] ridd: at the bottom of his website. Only if you are interested in going that third level deeper, you could click in and get all of the details. And I thought that was a really interesting approach versus having this giant wall of text. And it kind of makes me, you know, now when I ask, like, is there [00:20:00] anything that you've seen over your last few months of reviewing different portfolio websites that has stood out or you thought was like unique or interesting or captured your attention?
[00:20:10] yuan: there has been kind of a shift maybe just because like now
[00:20:13] yuan: I'm it's more okay to do like a password gated if you have like more of like confidential type of things, but you only wanted to show it for the right audience and not just be public for any, everyone, I think that's totally understandable. I I see a lot works get sent that way.
[00:20:30] yuan: Um, you know, you put in a password, then you actually get a lot of more in depth like portfolio, whether it's a deck or it's like a webpage. Um, That really helps you get a deeper understanding of the candidate's like skillset. I, I think that's, that's good. So if you think, yeah, like, you know, if the, if you are thinking about interviewing and you feel like you have a lot of things you, you could show, but you don't feel comfortable putting them all on your website, like that's probably like one approach that you would, you could consider.
[00:20:59] yuan: [00:21:00] Um. I've, I've also, like, seen, you know, of course, there's so many different hosting platforms, and you, there's so many conversations about, like, which one is better, and, you know, do we need a, the, the framework or do you need a webflow, and, I, I think, I think these are all great options, but, focus on good work, you know, so, like, your, your web portfolio site can help you, but, like, the platforms and all that, like, can help you, but , the work itself has to still be good , you know, to, to help, really help you stand out.
[00:21:30] yuan: So, um, I have given strong yes to candidates who just host their content on notion, you know, like, it's not because. The, the site is that impressive. It's, it's well organized. It's, as Notion helps it, but it's actually a lot more about the content that you talk about, your pro how you talk about your projects, how you introduce yourself, and, you know, how I can help, like, understand you as a designer, and your, your ways of thinking about problems.[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] yuan: That makes a big difference. So, I think it's, it's, it's easy to feel like, oh, like, Webflow or this site would help make my portfolio better. Um, but I would challenge, you know, to actually, like, not start there. To actually focus on your actual work and your story, and so that you have a more compelled thing to, to show.
[00:22:25] yuan: And then you can... Pick whatever project like platforms that you would like to to host it. Um, I I feel like that that in my mind. It's the right priority for for thinking about your your your portfolio
[00:22:36] ridd: You're saying my fancy 3D spline animation on my new shiny framer site doesn't matter?
[00:22:43] yuan: I would love to to have that myself actually. Yeah, I I think it's it's sick Like I I love spline like I that's one thing I like to learn more actually
Rethinking how we structure our portfolios
[00:15:22] ridd: I'd like to return back to your billboard comment. Um, and just this idea of like the, the advertisement for a portfolio project. Cause I think that's a pretty interesting way of thinking about it. And I've also kind of been tossing around this idea of like, what would it look like if we took a giant step back and kind of challenged the way that.
[00:15:41] ridd: We think about the information architecture on a portfolio site, because I saw this tweet and it was from Daryl Ginn, who he has the godly design website, and he said, no one is reading your case study, just put all of your recent work in order on one page [00:16:00] and make it easy to find. Watch what happens.
[00:16:02] yuan: If you look at, the people with my level of experience, I guess, like, people that I've worked together with, like, if you look at their portfolio, like, there's, like, no one format, really, you know, I think we only, start talking about a format for a case study because I think there's a lot of people, like, more than, I would say maybe more of a junior level, like, doesn't have, a lot of, super concrete, like, experience that you could ship, so then there's a lot of case studies that you have done to prove that you understand the concept, so then, actual place, you realize, like, Every place has a very different process and you don't have time to do personas all the time or to do all the different iterations, right?
[00:16:44] yuan: So, like, naturally, the way you present your work, later on in your career, like, it would just all be very different because every project gets shipped in different fashion. You know, there's many different processes that had gone through to get to that point.[00:17:00] I think there are no wrong ways to maybe like Organize the work itself as long as it's suitable to the nature of that project, right?
[00:17:09] yuan: So like, I, I think it's totally okay to not talk about like the, the details of how the iterations at a, at a site. And then just to focus on the things that you shipped. Like, especially if you are a designer who has shipped a lot of things in like some well known companies, then like, You don't have to go into all the details, right?
[00:17:28] yuan: Just like show the best stuff. Like kind of like the, the, what is it called? Like the highlight reel that like the 3d designers usually would pack together. Right. It's just like a trailer of like all the super cool stuff that they made. I think maybe we designers like product designers should do more of that too.
[00:17:45] ridd: yeah, I like that idea. It makes me think about like where certain types of content should live in your site. Because I think I see too many websites right now where you come to the page. There's some generic heading about they're a designer who cares, and then [00:18:00] you have, you know, three to six cards below and it's a thumbnail that probably just doesn't really actually communicate that much.
[00:18:07] ridd: And then a title of a project and that's it. And I'm expected to click on one of these. And. There's not like a narrative there. There's, there's, there's, that's like the dominant theme that I see on a lot of websites, where it's like, there's not that much of a narrative. And so, I had kind of been putting myself through this exercise of like, let's say I was two, three years into my career, what would I do on my homepage?
[00:18:27] ridd: And I think an interesting strategy that I would explore is taking more of the content from case studies, putting it on that homepage where it read more as this like cohesive story. Um, maybe like, I like your point of like, maybe it should feel a little bit more like a scissor reel than a grid of cards
[00:18:48] ridd: and have someone be able to come to my page and be able to like, understand.
[00:18:53] ridd: What I've worked on, what the timelines are, what the highlights are without having to click on anything and then [00:19:00] treat those case studies almost like an appendix for someone who wants to go a little bit deeper. And it also makes me think of this tactic that I saw, reviewing portfolios, I think it was last month.
[00:19:13] ridd: And there's this guy named Matt Baird, and he did something really, really interesting where on his. Portfolio pages. He, his breakdown of the project was quite short. Actually, he just told the highlights and he really put a lot of emphasis into having nice visuals that captured like the core prototype and then maybe like the core screens.
[00:19:36] ridd: And then he actually embedded a Figma slide deck
[00:19:41] ridd: at the bottom of his website. Only if you are interested in going that third level deeper, you could click in and get all of the details. And I thought that was a really interesting approach versus having this giant wall of text. And it kind of makes me, you know, now when I ask, like, is there [00:20:00] anything that you've seen over your last few months of reviewing different portfolio websites that has stood out or you thought was like unique or interesting or captured your attention?
[00:20:10] yuan: there has been kind of a shift maybe just because like now
[00:20:13] yuan: I'm it's more okay to do like a password gated if you have like more of like confidential type of things, but you only wanted to show it for the right audience and not just be public for any, everyone, I think that's totally understandable. I I see a lot works get sent that way.
[00:20:30] yuan: Um, you know, you put in a password, then you actually get a lot of more in depth like portfolio, whether it's a deck or it's like a webpage. Um, That really helps you get a deeper understanding of the candidate's like skillset. I, I think that's, that's good. So if you think, yeah, like, you know, if the, if you are thinking about interviewing and you feel like you have a lot of things you, you could show, but you don't feel comfortable putting them all on your website, like that's probably like one approach that you would, you could consider.
[00:20:59] yuan: [00:21:00] Um. I've, I've also, like, seen, you know, of course, there's so many different hosting platforms, and you, there's so many conversations about, like, which one is better, and, you know, do we need a, the, the framework or do you need a webflow, and, I, I think, I think these are all great options, but, focus on good work, you know, so, like, your, your web portfolio site can help you, but, like, the platforms and all that, like, can help you, but , the work itself has to still be good , you know, to, to help, really help you stand out.
[00:21:30] yuan: So, um, I have given strong yes to candidates who just host their content on notion, you know, like, it's not because. The, the site is that impressive. It's, it's well organized. It's, as Notion helps it, but it's actually a lot more about the content that you talk about, your pro how you talk about your projects, how you introduce yourself, and, you know, how I can help, like, understand you as a designer, and your, your ways of thinking about problems.[00:22:00]
[00:22:00] yuan: That makes a big difference. So, I think it's, it's, it's easy to feel like, oh, like, Webflow or this site would help make my portfolio better. Um, but I would challenge, you know, to actually, like, not start there. To actually focus on your actual work and your story, and so that you have a more compelled thing to, to show.
[00:22:25] yuan: And then you can... Pick whatever project like platforms that you would like to to host it. Um, I I feel like that that in my mind. It's the right priority for for thinking about your your your portfolio
[00:22:36] ridd: You're saying my fancy 3D spline animation on my new shiny framer site doesn't matter?
[00:22:43] yuan: I would love to to have that myself actually. Yeah, I I think it's it's sick Like I I love spline like I that's one thing I like to learn more actually
Presenting work at Twitter vs. a startup like Maven
[00:22:54] ridd: another area that I feel like I've just benefited so much from being able to observe you is, [00:23:00]Looking at how you present your work and how you shape this narrative internally. And so I'd like to do a little hypothetical here
[00:23:10] ridd: and put, kind of create a spectrum actually. Where on one end of the spectrum we have, you know, the meaty projects that you're taking on with Maven today.
[00:23:19] ridd: And on the other end of the spectrum, I want to go all the way back to 2017.
[00:23:25] ridd: You're leading the design of the original Twitter thread.
[00:23:28] ridd: So we have like the six year period. What are some of the main ways that you've grown as a communicator during that time and how does it take form in the way that you ultimately present your work internally?
[00:23:42] yuan: it's the environment. These are two really interesting anchor points because like, if I had to think about the environment that I'm at, at Maven, like the how many stakeholders or like how we make decisions, like versus at Twitter at the time, it's like so different. . Um, I, [00:24:00] I, I think you really had to tailor the way you.
[00:24:04] yuan: communicate or you get alignment based on the culture and the Organizational dynamic in the place That's why I felt like it's interesting to experience like work in different Places because every place you realize is like very different like how decision gets made or how Priority gets set right like a big company already public versus a company trying to go IPO versus a startup still You know trying to figure things out.
[00:24:32] yuan: So, when I was working on, , the Twitter threat project of, obviously it was like a pretty big high priority for the entire work. Um, and also because we designed for Twitter, like, like this is a, like foundational change to how tweets are showing off.
[00:24:49] yuan: Uh, when you make a change like that, everything else gets impacted. Like the how you monetize a tweet, you know how like it gets shown in a dmm. So like every [00:25:00] single. Team pretty much will need to know, okay, like this change is coming, like, how are we going to, like, adapt to this new dynamic, right? So, um, I think being the design lead on that project, I think a lot of the times, beyond just, you know, the work itself, it's also about, like, rallying other designers or other organizations, um, to, Understand what's coming, um, to work together to make sure, you know, things don't break when we ship.
[00:25:32] yuan: Um, so I think a lot of that, so it's, you know, a whole set of collaboration and communication and that's unique to more of a larger company. Where you have a lot of stakeholders and you know, your product really is like so core and central that touches so many things And that's very different from like the maven world right now um, and I think the other area, um, which was you know, like high high stake kind of Presentation, you know when [00:26:00] you had to present your team's vision your launch plan your go to market Uh was jack with the cmo and leslie at the time so you only maybe have like 30 minutes, like a max, like just to go there and tell you this is what we're going to do, this is our plan, like, you know, like, you know, so just really just like you pack everything into that short 30 minutes and, and how do you get the most out of that?
[00:26:26] yuan: Lead the room feeling confident, you know, and like energized. So like I think there's certainly Things that like, you know, like it's not just designers like design PM usually kind of go into that kind of conversations together I think how you feel about the work really matters to like if you feel confident and you like excited then yes Like people will feel that energy.
[00:26:49] yuan: I think this goes to like I think any kind of Presentation, you know, you want to hype yourself up in some ways. So, I, I, I think during that period, like, I had, [00:27:00] like, you know, you always maybe have a couple things maybe you hold on to that is your lucky charm, maybe, when you're in that kind of situation.
[00:27:07] yuan: Like, for me, it's like, I have a specific pair of... Hill shoes that I will always wear when I go to a High stake like presentation like so like probably like Jack will always see me wearing the same kind of shoes like going to have presentation It's just somehow like I just like okay. This is a moment.
[00:27:25] yuan: I'm gonna wear these shoes. I'm gonna kill it You know, so just like mentally set yourself ready for that big You know, stage. It's not big. It's a small conference room, but still, like, you
[00:27:35] yuan: know, you just really, really, really just get ready, like, mentally prepared for it. So I think that's helpful for me.
[00:27:42] yuan: There's something that you kind of, you're like, looking forward to, you know, um, and then I think because it's also a high stake kind of situation, like, you kind of want to come prepared, right? So, like, and then you also want to make the senior leadership felt like. [00:28:00] You heard them, you know, if they have feedback, like, you heard them, but you had to, like, what are ways you can tell them that this is not gonna work, you know, because they might have, like, very different, like, very crazy ideas about how a tweet, like, a thread card should look like, and then they would propose a lot of interesting stuff, maybe, but you kind of had to, you know, tell them this is cool, but, like, Hey, here are the five reasons why it might not work.
[00:28:28] yuan: So, so we kind of, you know, had to, like, there was like one presentation, we kind of got a little more into the details, and then I had to prepare, kind of, you know, showcasing some directions just to, like, Hey, this is how it would look in different places and DMS. And this is how we look in like, you know, other places like this will break the system.
[00:28:49] yuan: And if we go this way, right, so just to help them visualize and see, oh, the team had thought about this very thoughtfully. Let me just put my gun down and just like, yeah, okay, [00:29:00] like, I trust your team to make this decision, right? So it's just how you, you're designed to acknowledge their input, but also like, Hold your ground.
[00:29:08] yuan: I felt like that was, you know, like a tactic that has been helpful for dealing with these type of feedback with, like, top down. Um, so, yeah, I think these are kind of the main things during the Twitter times. I would say, like, Maven is, It's so small that, you know, you don't kind of spend like two days trying to pack like a presentation just to like show it in the review, right?
[00:29:34] yuan: Like you don't do that because we work so fast and we're like quick. You know, feedback cycle, right? So I think sometimes it's more helpful when you can show like, what your thought process is and this is the direction you're thinking. Maybe there are a couple options, but but you can either share that async or, you know, live for a more rich conversation and discussion.
[00:29:57] yuan: Um, I felt like, you know, there [00:30:00] is definitely some similarities, like, you know, still like you want to be Clear about what feedback you're looking for. Um, so that the team and your stakeholders understand how to be most helpful, um, for for the conversation. I think that's like a level set. It's. You know, always good to have for any kind of conversation, especially critique kind of conversation.
[00:30:23] yuan: Like, are you looking for feedback on this prototype? Or are you looking for feedback on the, you know, general directions? You know, are you looking for just like interaction details feedback? So like, I mean, always say your audience matters. You know, maybe you want to tailor your feedback for the audience so that they also can feel the most useful in that conversation.
[00:30:45] yuan: So, so I think like... There's still like a lot of, I think, similarities and different kind of organizational settings. Um, yeah, that's, that's overall thought process.
Presenting work at Twitter vs. a startup like Maven
[00:22:54] ridd: another area that I feel like I've just benefited so much from being able to observe you is, [00:23:00]Looking at how you present your work and how you shape this narrative internally. And so I'd like to do a little hypothetical here
[00:23:10] ridd: and put, kind of create a spectrum actually. Where on one end of the spectrum we have, you know, the meaty projects that you're taking on with Maven today.
[00:23:19] ridd: And on the other end of the spectrum, I want to go all the way back to 2017.
[00:23:25] ridd: You're leading the design of the original Twitter thread.
[00:23:28] ridd: So we have like the six year period. What are some of the main ways that you've grown as a communicator during that time and how does it take form in the way that you ultimately present your work internally?
[00:23:42] yuan: it's the environment. These are two really interesting anchor points because like, if I had to think about the environment that I'm at, at Maven, like the how many stakeholders or like how we make decisions, like versus at Twitter at the time, it's like so different. . Um, I, [00:24:00] I, I think you really had to tailor the way you.
[00:24:04] yuan: communicate or you get alignment based on the culture and the Organizational dynamic in the place That's why I felt like it's interesting to experience like work in different Places because every place you realize is like very different like how decision gets made or how Priority gets set right like a big company already public versus a company trying to go IPO versus a startup still You know trying to figure things out.
[00:24:32] yuan: So, when I was working on, , the Twitter threat project of, obviously it was like a pretty big high priority for the entire work. Um, and also because we designed for Twitter, like, like this is a, like foundational change to how tweets are showing off.
[00:24:49] yuan: Uh, when you make a change like that, everything else gets impacted. Like the how you monetize a tweet, you know how like it gets shown in a dmm. So like every [00:25:00] single. Team pretty much will need to know, okay, like this change is coming, like, how are we going to, like, adapt to this new dynamic, right? So, um, I think being the design lead on that project, I think a lot of the times, beyond just, you know, the work itself, it's also about, like, rallying other designers or other organizations, um, to, Understand what's coming, um, to work together to make sure, you know, things don't break when we ship.
[00:25:32] yuan: Um, so I think a lot of that, so it's, you know, a whole set of collaboration and communication and that's unique to more of a larger company. Where you have a lot of stakeholders and you know, your product really is like so core and central that touches so many things And that's very different from like the maven world right now um, and I think the other area, um, which was you know, like high high stake kind of Presentation, you know when [00:26:00] you had to present your team's vision your launch plan your go to market Uh was jack with the cmo and leslie at the time so you only maybe have like 30 minutes, like a max, like just to go there and tell you this is what we're going to do, this is our plan, like, you know, like, you know, so just really just like you pack everything into that short 30 minutes and, and how do you get the most out of that?
[00:26:26] yuan: Lead the room feeling confident, you know, and like energized. So like I think there's certainly Things that like, you know, like it's not just designers like design PM usually kind of go into that kind of conversations together I think how you feel about the work really matters to like if you feel confident and you like excited then yes Like people will feel that energy.
[00:26:49] yuan: I think this goes to like I think any kind of Presentation, you know, you want to hype yourself up in some ways. So, I, I, I think during that period, like, I had, [00:27:00] like, you know, you always maybe have a couple things maybe you hold on to that is your lucky charm, maybe, when you're in that kind of situation.
[00:27:07] yuan: Like, for me, it's like, I have a specific pair of... Hill shoes that I will always wear when I go to a High stake like presentation like so like probably like Jack will always see me wearing the same kind of shoes like going to have presentation It's just somehow like I just like okay. This is a moment.
[00:27:25] yuan: I'm gonna wear these shoes. I'm gonna kill it You know, so just like mentally set yourself ready for that big You know, stage. It's not big. It's a small conference room, but still, like, you
[00:27:35] yuan: know, you just really, really, really just get ready, like, mentally prepared for it. So I think that's helpful for me.
[00:27:42] yuan: There's something that you kind of, you're like, looking forward to, you know, um, and then I think because it's also a high stake kind of situation, like, you kind of want to come prepared, right? So, like, and then you also want to make the senior leadership felt like. [00:28:00] You heard them, you know, if they have feedback, like, you heard them, but you had to, like, what are ways you can tell them that this is not gonna work, you know, because they might have, like, very different, like, very crazy ideas about how a tweet, like, a thread card should look like, and then they would propose a lot of interesting stuff, maybe, but you kind of had to, you know, tell them this is cool, but, like, Hey, here are the five reasons why it might not work.
[00:28:28] yuan: So, so we kind of, you know, had to, like, there was like one presentation, we kind of got a little more into the details, and then I had to prepare, kind of, you know, showcasing some directions just to, like, Hey, this is how it would look in different places and DMS. And this is how we look in like, you know, other places like this will break the system.
[00:28:49] yuan: And if we go this way, right, so just to help them visualize and see, oh, the team had thought about this very thoughtfully. Let me just put my gun down and just like, yeah, okay, [00:29:00] like, I trust your team to make this decision, right? So it's just how you, you're designed to acknowledge their input, but also like, Hold your ground.
[00:29:08] yuan: I felt like that was, you know, like a tactic that has been helpful for dealing with these type of feedback with, like, top down. Um, so, yeah, I think these are kind of the main things during the Twitter times. I would say, like, Maven is, It's so small that, you know, you don't kind of spend like two days trying to pack like a presentation just to like show it in the review, right?
[00:29:34] yuan: Like you don't do that because we work so fast and we're like quick. You know, feedback cycle, right? So I think sometimes it's more helpful when you can show like, what your thought process is and this is the direction you're thinking. Maybe there are a couple options, but but you can either share that async or, you know, live for a more rich conversation and discussion.
[00:29:57] yuan: Um, I felt like, you know, there [00:30:00] is definitely some similarities, like, you know, still like you want to be Clear about what feedback you're looking for. Um, so that the team and your stakeholders understand how to be most helpful, um, for for the conversation. I think that's like a level set. It's. You know, always good to have for any kind of conversation, especially critique kind of conversation.
[00:30:23] yuan: Like, are you looking for feedback on this prototype? Or are you looking for feedback on the, you know, general directions? You know, are you looking for just like interaction details feedback? So like, I mean, always say your audience matters. You know, maybe you want to tailor your feedback for the audience so that they also can feel the most useful in that conversation.
[00:30:45] yuan: So, so I think like... There's still like a lot of, I think, similarities and different kind of organizational settings. Um, yeah, that's, that's overall thought process.
Designing the original Twitter thread
[00:30:59] ridd: The [00:31:00] high level stakes presentation for something like Twitter is obviously, it sounds like it's a little bit later in the design process. You've thought through a lot of things. You probably have a more narrow set of concepts that you are interested in, um, for, to get to that point. Is that accurate?
[00:31:14] yuan: That's true. Um, I think one thing I didn't say, talk about, but it was at the early stage We did have more of a sprint cycle So we did have like almost like a one to two week, like a two week I think it was maybe one and a half, but the most compact was like a one week sprint We had two Stammy So, like, both of us were working on, like, one person on consumption, one person on, like, creation.
[00:31:43] yuan: And we just were, like, cranking out, like, directions and prototypes. And we do, like, a daily, at the end of day, like, check in with, uh, the VP of product. We kind of do daily check ins with him, um, just to really get quick feedback loop.
[00:31:58] yuan: And this was before [00:32:00] we kind of like green, green light the entire project. So we kind of just like, oh, let's do this. Let's see how we can take this concept and where can we go with and then we. End up like, you know, at a pretty good place. And then we then later on, like assemble the team, like put engineers behind it.
[00:32:16] yuan: So at the time it before it was just like 1 PM, two designers basically like working on the concepts and have daily check ins with our product, uh, VP, um, for about like two weeks.
Designing the original Twitter thread
[00:30:59] ridd: The [00:31:00] high level stakes presentation for something like Twitter is obviously, it sounds like it's a little bit later in the design process. You've thought through a lot of things. You probably have a more narrow set of concepts that you are interested in, um, for, to get to that point. Is that accurate?
[00:31:14] yuan: That's true. Um, I think one thing I didn't say, talk about, but it was at the early stage We did have more of a sprint cycle So we did have like almost like a one to two week, like a two week I think it was maybe one and a half, but the most compact was like a one week sprint We had two Stammy So, like, both of us were working on, like, one person on consumption, one person on, like, creation.
[00:31:43] yuan: And we just were, like, cranking out, like, directions and prototypes. And we do, like, a daily, at the end of day, like, check in with, uh, the VP of product. We kind of do daily check ins with him, um, just to really get quick feedback loop.
[00:31:58] yuan: And this was before [00:32:00] we kind of like green, green light the entire project. So we kind of just like, oh, let's do this. Let's see how we can take this concept and where can we go with and then we. End up like, you know, at a pretty good place. And then we then later on, like assemble the team, like put engineers behind it.
[00:32:16] yuan: So at the time it before it was just like 1 PM, two designers basically like working on the concepts and have daily check ins with our product, uh, VP, um, for about like two weeks.
Strategies for your next CRIT
[00:32:30] ridd: let's compare and contrast that presentation with something that would maybe happen today. And I'm, I'm really interested in looking earlier in the design process as well. So like, let's say that there's buy-in around a specific problem area, um, and there's still a lot of flexibility in terms of where the design could ultimately. And so like tomorrow, hypothetically, you have a slot at crit and you have these 30 minutes [00:33:00] to, to share what you were thinking with different stakeholders. Can you walk us through your process of preparing for that meeting? And I'm specifically interested in how you think about what your deliverable should be and like, what are you showing and how are you guiding
[00:33:16] ridd: those 30 minutes?
[00:33:18] yuan: I think always, you know, for crit, like, I like to think about what I would like to walk away with, you know, what input would help me get the most clarity for the work that I'm doing. Like, what questions do I have that I would like to get feedback from this person, like the entire group. So I think I usually start there, and then I'll work backwards from that, and then try to organize my work or how I want to present the work.
[00:33:45] yuan: Um, in that way, so that, you know, naturally after some context and directions and space for debate, like I would Kind of queued up those questions so that we could have these like targeted conversations. I think [00:34:00]it's easy to feel like you're out of control sometimes in in certain crit situations You're like, oh I come in to like present work and I wanted to talk about a but then like everybody else started looking at This like B and C and D, you know, like I'm just like I end up not getting the feedback I want for a right so this is like a lot of times It could be a larger problem with just like the problem you're trying solving.
[00:34:21] yuan: Maybe that's, you know, a sign. But sometimes, you know, it's also just like how you can guide people and how you can facilitate these things in that 30 minutes. I think it's showcase Designer's ability to, um, acknowledge questions, understand what it's worth discussing now or what's worth discussing later on.
[00:34:46] yuan: Uh, what are something maybe you have thought about, but not having to, like, show it all during that time, right? So, I really believe that CRIT is something that the presenter should... Control, [00:35:00] you know, it's not like something that the yeah, like there should be like a top down kind of approach So you should make the best use of that time.
[00:35:09] yuan: So whatever is most useful for you That's the most useful of a crit. be clear about What feedback you're looking for going in and then work backwards. I think that's the most useful Thought framework that I have and then I think it also Sometimes in quick conversations, I've seen designers sometimes get too deep too quickly Into the micro details and then they kind of lost track of the larger Problem or the business context for people maybe like not a designer or like someone who is Haven't seen this project for for a while and just like showed up in crit they might have a lot of questions about like why are we doing this, you know?
[00:35:52] yuan: So like it really depends on who are in their room because like be able to read a room. It's helpful So if you know this person like a lot of people don't have a [00:36:00] context for this project Maybe you should spend some time setting up a context for why you're doing this, why this is a problem worth solving, so that, you know, you can answer those questions, address them first, and then you can get into more of the concrete solutions and presenting them.
[00:36:17] yuan: I think that's helpful. Um, I, I, I felt like it's, it's maybe a reminder for people just to think in the 2x kind of, um, framework, so it's like zoom out just one level up versus Go too far, you know, you feel like you have to cover all the different spectrums, like maybe you think about the two year vision or like, you know, but then also there's like things that your engineer is going to ship like next week, like that's like too far of the spectrum, right?
[00:36:44] yuan: So, I think, like, understand what that 2x means for your project. helps you look more prepared, um, and then it also helps, I think, everyone on the panel, like the, the crit, um, understand the larger scenarios, like, but [00:37:00]just enough to, to make good feedback, I believe, so I think that's, that's, I think, the context for, I think, good feedback, I guess there, there could also be, zoom out 2x could also be, You have these detail level concepts, right, but what if you actually zoom to x so that you actually summarize like these five different concepts into two directions, you know, so then you can actually debate on a higher level like the directional level with your cross functional partners because they might have more opinions about those, that, that level versus the details.
[00:37:35] yuan: So when you can kind of visualize your thought process that way, you actually can guide the conversation. You know, they may disagree with like, you know, option 1A, but like, but they actually will bought in into, this. Direction one, but they just maybe there needs to be like a one D, you know, that's just different but like that's kind of the sometimes to to use these kind of Hierarchies to [00:38:00] help you understand where do your stakeholder align?
[00:38:04] yuan: You know do they align at this like foundation like detail level or is it more like we all bought in in this Level of direction, but maybe the detail execution needs to be Iterated. Okay, we can do that. Like, that's still a really good output from a CRIT, right? So you get that some kind of alignment, but you know, what are the next level of things that you need to work on?
[00:38:26] yuan: how can designers create these type of artifacts or like hierarchies of information so that you can use it to understand where other people are at.
[00:38:36] ridd: I love the idea of kind of grouping concepts into these higher level directions. This two X view, you said this phrase, visualizing your ideas. Can you go a little bit deeper onto that? let's say you're sharing your screen in a zoom call. What actually is on that screen? How do you think about the best thing to visually put in front of the stakeholders in the room in order to get the output and the outcome that you're looking for?
[00:38:59] yuan: if you are like [00:39:00] depends on the level of input you're looking for so like sometimes you're really just looking at a higher level strategy, you know, like should we work on A, you know, that's maybe that's like type of question So like you're not really gonna get into the detailed pixel level of like what A would look like, right?
[00:39:18] yuan: So maybe you will actually spend more time talking about Customer interview feedback, like you might have screenshots of like, these are things that our customers are saying from our surveys, um, you know, to back it up, or there might be also just kind of confusions from our existing. Product and you can kind of visualize that like, you know, maybe there are how many entry points are, you know, in this place that it's confusing, or, you know, how can you actually strengthen your arguments?
[00:39:50] yuan: Basically, you're making you're trying to make a point, right? So when what is that point you're trying to make? And then what are the evidence that you have to make to support that [00:40:00] point? Right? Is it through customer interviews? Or is it through your kind of design lens? Like, you know, like understanding Using your design foundational knowledge to make a critique of that, or is it actually looking at the data to make the data will tell you like, we have a problem with leaky bucket, like, you know, people are dropping off in this onboarding flow, so I think these are just, like, questions, maybe, that you can anticipate that people might have. Like, what are probably the things that they may say when they ask you, right? And then you can anticipate these questions and prepare ahead of time. So, like, these are maybe, like, that type level of conversations, how I would think about it.
[00:40:37] yuan: and then I think the more Day to day like, you know, like we have a bunch of directions for this project, you know This is how it could look like and how user will use it I like to pack them into some, like, higher level directions.
[00:40:51] yuan: I think sometimes it's helpful to name your explorations, so that, like, it's easy for people to grasp, like, Oh, this is, like, [00:41:00] the drawer concept, and that is, like, the sheet concept, you know, so, like, whatever kind of ways you could do to, like, Help people understand, like, these are two different concepts, and then it's easy for them to also talk about them, right?
[00:41:12] yuan: Like, give feedback. So, like, these are, like, small things. I think it helps when you are, like, doing explorations. And I'm also seeing, like, scene designers who... Just, like, go through, like, ten, like, seven, eight, like, different concepts in this one crit, and then people just get bored. Because, like, oh, they all look kind of the same to me, so.
[00:41:32] yuan: So I think, yeah, how can you organize your thought process and do some editing so that you are creating, like, some very different directions to, try to understand maybe, Where are people at the spectrum, right? You could just have like a really basic idea maybe and then there's like a wild idea and there maybe it's like something in the middle.
[00:41:48] yuan: I think you do that as well. I remember seeing that. So
[00:41:51] ridd: I like spectrums,
[00:41:52] yuan: Yeah, so it kind of really helped people understand, like, oh, cool, like, maybe the crazy one is not so crazy, and so then, because they [00:42:00] have the comparison, like, they understand, okay, let's go more wild, so, instead of, like, trying to just iterate on small things, like, how can you push your thinking so that you can create these, like, more wide range Concepts for for really effective feedback.
[00:42:14] yuan: I think that's a skill. I think designers should like continue to do more And just enough options like not too many. I think that's also really important
[00:42:22] ridd: That was something that I totally learned from you. I have like my secret notion page of just like all the little tidbits that I've picked up that I just want to remember for future roles. And one of the things that really stood out to me is... We were working on these concepts. Like, how do you preview a course quickly coming from a homepage and you had this really cool concept, but was what I took away from is you gave it a name and you gave it the CL peak, which we had this acronym CLP and you created CLP the easiest way to just like get what you need without having to open up a new route.
[00:42:57] ridd: And I think it directly contributed to the amount [00:43:00] of buy in that we had because it was so easy to refer to. It was so memorable and another way that you can kind of use this, this naming strategy that I have definitely picked up from you is having summary slides as well. Like at the end of your presentation, having this like.
[00:43:18] ridd: Summary side. What do I want to leave up on zoom when we're having a bunch of conversation about what we just talked about? And maybe you have a very low fidelity representation of these different concepts. Maybe they are living on some kind of a spectrum, but they definitely have that name. So that people can easily point to it and talk about it.
[00:43:39] ridd: Um, and so like even just facilitating that conversation after your presentation is done and what is that visual that you leave up there? That's something that I have also noticed you take very seriously and it's really helps drive that conversation forward.
[00:43:53] yuan: It's a lot of communication, I think, especially I felt like if you, like, I never worked at agency but I do feel like [00:44:00] agency type of communicating, you know, it's like you really gotta make people believe in the thing that you are presenting, right, so like there is certainly a lot of kind of ways of communicating or tactics that's probably really effective.
[00:44:14] yuan: So I think I probably learned some of these things from other people who have more agency backgrounds in the past.
[00:44:19] ridd: covered a lot of ground. I don't want to keep you forever. Is there anything that you still feel like you want to share or questions that you think that I should be asking?
[00:44:29] yuan: Well, I think, you know, like a lot of people probably listen to this podcast or, um, you know, thinking about your, your career and your, how to grow yourself. And I think it's, it is not an easy environment and it's today particularly. So I do think it's. Oftentimes, it can feel like you're, you're not making progress.
[00:44:53] yuan: Um, I just want to say that, like, there are still things that you can control, you [00:45:00] know, like, which are improving your skills. So, like, how can you leverage the time and then the space that you have during this moment to Focus on the skills you want to develop and then the experience you want to collect Versus chasing for certain title or companies that make you maybe feel Good about yourself, I think the skills in my opinions will really serve you far I think our industry now, like, has maybe made all of us feel impatient, in some ways, about results.
[00:45:35] yuan: Like, you know, we want to get quick results. Fast. a lot of us are proud of our craft because we love that aspect and, and good craft does take time. and it takes just, you know, day to day exposure and, and, you know, things that you, similar ideas and you spark on different directions.
[00:45:56] yuan: So. be patient, I guess, with the results. [00:46:00] Consistency will certainly serve you far.
[00:46:03] ridd: Yeah, I love that point on consistency. I think that's at the end of the day, one of the attributes or qualities that matters most in the long run. And, uh, so glad, I'm glad that we ended there. Thank you. This has been amazing. I
[00:46:16] ridd: feel like I've learned so much from you and just being able to, to share that with others has been great.
[00:46:21] ridd: I know it's gonna be really valuable. And final plug again, if you want to work with you in at Maven, go to maven. com slash careers, you will not regret it. That is all
[00:46:32] yuan: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. So good to see you again.
[00:46:36] ridd: good to see you.
Strategies for your next CRIT
[00:32:30] ridd: let's compare and contrast that presentation with something that would maybe happen today. And I'm, I'm really interested in looking earlier in the design process as well. So like, let's say that there's buy-in around a specific problem area, um, and there's still a lot of flexibility in terms of where the design could ultimately. And so like tomorrow, hypothetically, you have a slot at crit and you have these 30 minutes [00:33:00] to, to share what you were thinking with different stakeholders. Can you walk us through your process of preparing for that meeting? And I'm specifically interested in how you think about what your deliverable should be and like, what are you showing and how are you guiding
[00:33:16] ridd: those 30 minutes?
[00:33:18] yuan: I think always, you know, for crit, like, I like to think about what I would like to walk away with, you know, what input would help me get the most clarity for the work that I'm doing. Like, what questions do I have that I would like to get feedback from this person, like the entire group. So I think I usually start there, and then I'll work backwards from that, and then try to organize my work or how I want to present the work.
[00:33:45] yuan: Um, in that way, so that, you know, naturally after some context and directions and space for debate, like I would Kind of queued up those questions so that we could have these like targeted conversations. I think [00:34:00]it's easy to feel like you're out of control sometimes in in certain crit situations You're like, oh I come in to like present work and I wanted to talk about a but then like everybody else started looking at This like B and C and D, you know, like I'm just like I end up not getting the feedback I want for a right so this is like a lot of times It could be a larger problem with just like the problem you're trying solving.
[00:34:21] yuan: Maybe that's, you know, a sign. But sometimes, you know, it's also just like how you can guide people and how you can facilitate these things in that 30 minutes. I think it's showcase Designer's ability to, um, acknowledge questions, understand what it's worth discussing now or what's worth discussing later on.
[00:34:46] yuan: Uh, what are something maybe you have thought about, but not having to, like, show it all during that time, right? So, I really believe that CRIT is something that the presenter should... Control, [00:35:00] you know, it's not like something that the yeah, like there should be like a top down kind of approach So you should make the best use of that time.
[00:35:09] yuan: So whatever is most useful for you That's the most useful of a crit. be clear about What feedback you're looking for going in and then work backwards. I think that's the most useful Thought framework that I have and then I think it also Sometimes in quick conversations, I've seen designers sometimes get too deep too quickly Into the micro details and then they kind of lost track of the larger Problem or the business context for people maybe like not a designer or like someone who is Haven't seen this project for for a while and just like showed up in crit they might have a lot of questions about like why are we doing this, you know?
[00:35:52] yuan: So like it really depends on who are in their room because like be able to read a room. It's helpful So if you know this person like a lot of people don't have a [00:36:00] context for this project Maybe you should spend some time setting up a context for why you're doing this, why this is a problem worth solving, so that, you know, you can answer those questions, address them first, and then you can get into more of the concrete solutions and presenting them.
[00:36:17] yuan: I think that's helpful. Um, I, I, I felt like it's, it's maybe a reminder for people just to think in the 2x kind of, um, framework, so it's like zoom out just one level up versus Go too far, you know, you feel like you have to cover all the different spectrums, like maybe you think about the two year vision or like, you know, but then also there's like things that your engineer is going to ship like next week, like that's like too far of the spectrum, right?
[00:36:44] yuan: So, I think, like, understand what that 2x means for your project. helps you look more prepared, um, and then it also helps, I think, everyone on the panel, like the, the crit, um, understand the larger scenarios, like, but [00:37:00]just enough to, to make good feedback, I believe, so I think that's, that's, I think, the context for, I think, good feedback, I guess there, there could also be, zoom out 2x could also be, You have these detail level concepts, right, but what if you actually zoom to x so that you actually summarize like these five different concepts into two directions, you know, so then you can actually debate on a higher level like the directional level with your cross functional partners because they might have more opinions about those, that, that level versus the details.
[00:37:35] yuan: So when you can kind of visualize your thought process that way, you actually can guide the conversation. You know, they may disagree with like, you know, option 1A, but like, but they actually will bought in into, this. Direction one, but they just maybe there needs to be like a one D, you know, that's just different but like that's kind of the sometimes to to use these kind of Hierarchies to [00:38:00] help you understand where do your stakeholder align?
[00:38:04] yuan: You know do they align at this like foundation like detail level or is it more like we all bought in in this Level of direction, but maybe the detail execution needs to be Iterated. Okay, we can do that. Like, that's still a really good output from a CRIT, right? So you get that some kind of alignment, but you know, what are the next level of things that you need to work on?
[00:38:26] yuan: how can designers create these type of artifacts or like hierarchies of information so that you can use it to understand where other people are at.
[00:38:36] ridd: I love the idea of kind of grouping concepts into these higher level directions. This two X view, you said this phrase, visualizing your ideas. Can you go a little bit deeper onto that? let's say you're sharing your screen in a zoom call. What actually is on that screen? How do you think about the best thing to visually put in front of the stakeholders in the room in order to get the output and the outcome that you're looking for?
[00:38:59] yuan: if you are like [00:39:00] depends on the level of input you're looking for so like sometimes you're really just looking at a higher level strategy, you know, like should we work on A, you know, that's maybe that's like type of question So like you're not really gonna get into the detailed pixel level of like what A would look like, right?
[00:39:18] yuan: So maybe you will actually spend more time talking about Customer interview feedback, like you might have screenshots of like, these are things that our customers are saying from our surveys, um, you know, to back it up, or there might be also just kind of confusions from our existing. Product and you can kind of visualize that like, you know, maybe there are how many entry points are, you know, in this place that it's confusing, or, you know, how can you actually strengthen your arguments?
[00:39:50] yuan: Basically, you're making you're trying to make a point, right? So when what is that point you're trying to make? And then what are the evidence that you have to make to support that [00:40:00] point? Right? Is it through customer interviews? Or is it through your kind of design lens? Like, you know, like understanding Using your design foundational knowledge to make a critique of that, or is it actually looking at the data to make the data will tell you like, we have a problem with leaky bucket, like, you know, people are dropping off in this onboarding flow, so I think these are just, like, questions, maybe, that you can anticipate that people might have. Like, what are probably the things that they may say when they ask you, right? And then you can anticipate these questions and prepare ahead of time. So, like, these are maybe, like, that type level of conversations, how I would think about it.
[00:40:37] yuan: and then I think the more Day to day like, you know, like we have a bunch of directions for this project, you know This is how it could look like and how user will use it I like to pack them into some, like, higher level directions.
[00:40:51] yuan: I think sometimes it's helpful to name your explorations, so that, like, it's easy for people to grasp, like, Oh, this is, like, [00:41:00] the drawer concept, and that is, like, the sheet concept, you know, so, like, whatever kind of ways you could do to, like, Help people understand, like, these are two different concepts, and then it's easy for them to also talk about them, right?
[00:41:12] yuan: Like, give feedback. So, like, these are, like, small things. I think it helps when you are, like, doing explorations. And I'm also seeing, like, scene designers who... Just, like, go through, like, ten, like, seven, eight, like, different concepts in this one crit, and then people just get bored. Because, like, oh, they all look kind of the same to me, so.
[00:41:32] yuan: So I think, yeah, how can you organize your thought process and do some editing so that you are creating, like, some very different directions to, try to understand maybe, Where are people at the spectrum, right? You could just have like a really basic idea maybe and then there's like a wild idea and there maybe it's like something in the middle.
[00:41:48] yuan: I think you do that as well. I remember seeing that. So
[00:41:51] ridd: I like spectrums,
[00:41:52] yuan: Yeah, so it kind of really helped people understand, like, oh, cool, like, maybe the crazy one is not so crazy, and so then, because they [00:42:00] have the comparison, like, they understand, okay, let's go more wild, so, instead of, like, trying to just iterate on small things, like, how can you push your thinking so that you can create these, like, more wide range Concepts for for really effective feedback.
[00:42:14] yuan: I think that's a skill. I think designers should like continue to do more And just enough options like not too many. I think that's also really important
[00:42:22] ridd: That was something that I totally learned from you. I have like my secret notion page of just like all the little tidbits that I've picked up that I just want to remember for future roles. And one of the things that really stood out to me is... We were working on these concepts. Like, how do you preview a course quickly coming from a homepage and you had this really cool concept, but was what I took away from is you gave it a name and you gave it the CL peak, which we had this acronym CLP and you created CLP the easiest way to just like get what you need without having to open up a new route.
[00:42:57] ridd: And I think it directly contributed to the amount [00:43:00] of buy in that we had because it was so easy to refer to. It was so memorable and another way that you can kind of use this, this naming strategy that I have definitely picked up from you is having summary slides as well. Like at the end of your presentation, having this like.
[00:43:18] ridd: Summary side. What do I want to leave up on zoom when we're having a bunch of conversation about what we just talked about? And maybe you have a very low fidelity representation of these different concepts. Maybe they are living on some kind of a spectrum, but they definitely have that name. So that people can easily point to it and talk about it.
[00:43:39] ridd: Um, and so like even just facilitating that conversation after your presentation is done and what is that visual that you leave up there? That's something that I have also noticed you take very seriously and it's really helps drive that conversation forward.
[00:43:53] yuan: It's a lot of communication, I think, especially I felt like if you, like, I never worked at agency but I do feel like [00:44:00] agency type of communicating, you know, it's like you really gotta make people believe in the thing that you are presenting, right, so like there is certainly a lot of kind of ways of communicating or tactics that's probably really effective.
[00:44:14] yuan: So I think I probably learned some of these things from other people who have more agency backgrounds in the past.
[00:44:19] ridd: covered a lot of ground. I don't want to keep you forever. Is there anything that you still feel like you want to share or questions that you think that I should be asking?
[00:44:29] yuan: Well, I think, you know, like a lot of people probably listen to this podcast or, um, you know, thinking about your, your career and your, how to grow yourself. And I think it's, it is not an easy environment and it's today particularly. So I do think it's. Oftentimes, it can feel like you're, you're not making progress.
[00:44:53] yuan: Um, I just want to say that, like, there are still things that you can control, you [00:45:00] know, like, which are improving your skills. So, like, how can you leverage the time and then the space that you have during this moment to Focus on the skills you want to develop and then the experience you want to collect Versus chasing for certain title or companies that make you maybe feel Good about yourself, I think the skills in my opinions will really serve you far I think our industry now, like, has maybe made all of us feel impatient, in some ways, about results.
[00:45:35] yuan: Like, you know, we want to get quick results. Fast. a lot of us are proud of our craft because we love that aspect and, and good craft does take time. and it takes just, you know, day to day exposure and, and, you know, things that you, similar ideas and you spark on different directions.
[00:45:56] yuan: So. be patient, I guess, with the results. [00:46:00] Consistency will certainly serve you far.
[00:46:03] ridd: Yeah, I love that point on consistency. I think that's at the end of the day, one of the attributes or qualities that matters most in the long run. And, uh, so glad, I'm glad that we ended there. Thank you. This has been amazing. I
[00:46:16] ridd: feel like I've learned so much from you and just being able to, to share that with others has been great.
[00:46:21] ridd: I know it's gonna be really valuable. And final plug again, if you want to work with you in at Maven, go to maven. com slash careers, you will not regret it. That is all
[00:46:32] yuan: Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. So good to see you again.
[00:46:36] ridd: good to see you.
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